Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It seems like you are trying to avoid examining or acknowledging the problems with your church's modus operandi? Do you disagree with what I've said? If so, why?
Not at all. I answered your questions. Now, what should we do in these situations, in your opinion?
Jimmie.... you have applied a inspired process for church discipline. The process is perfect but as we all know the imperfection is within each of us and will manifest in the application of scripture. It's one of the hardest things to do because who can see into another's heart. Sometime the needs of the one can out weigh the needs of the many but when anyone is charged with the responsibility and accountability from God as an overseer then there is a higher burden to be a spiritual guardian for the welfare of believers.
It troubles me to hear others become accusers when they know nothing about a church or your church or it's congregation... especially since it's clear your trying to be compliant to your pastoral duties.
How have you determined my views on homosexuality (I haven't said much on those threads) and race (I've never said anything racist here)?
I need some evidence or an apology.
To be honest, jimmiej, I don't recall you saying anything to indicate what you think on the issue of committed single-sex relationships. I'd have to say that the recognition of a need for biblical discipline in the body has landed you in company with people who have done so and you are guilty by association. The fact that I support what you have said in general terms and specifically about blatant violation of committed relationsxhips could help in that regard, but I wonder if it will just land me in hot water too.
Not at all. I answered your questions. Now, what should we do in these situations, in your opinion?
First, no, you haven't answered my questions. Here there are again:
Quote:
I've got to tell you, that sounds a whole lot like you care about keeping up appearances far and away above anything else.
Why are appearances your main concern, jimmie?
Quote:
And ... sin will spread? What do you really mean by that? If people know that other people are sinning, they will too? You say God is sanctifying Christians, yet you are afraid that if Christians are around sinful people (which you say you ALL are) then they are going to catch sin like a disease. How are you not all infecting each other on a regular bases, if your "sin immune systems" are so compromised? That doesn't sound like much sanctification is really happening, seriously. You're sort of like hothouse flowers.
What do you mean, sin will spread? How does sin spread? Just by knowing that someone else is sinning, you might commit the same sin? Do you REALLY believe God is sanctifying you? If so, why are you so fearful of other people's sin infecting you?
As to your question about what you should do in these situations: WHAT situations? You mean the ones where somebody isn't secretive enough about their sin so people outside the church might find out about it? The ones that might hurt your church's reputation? The sins of other people that you think are somehow going to cause YOU to sin just by knowing about them? I'd say, first and foremost, as a church, address YOUR motivation and YOUR spiritual health. Once you've done that, you'll know better how to handle situations.
To be honest, jimmiej, I don't recall you saying anything to indicate what you think on the issue of committed single-sex relationships. I'd have to say that the recognition of a need for biblical discipline in the body has landed you in company with people who have done so and you are guilty by association. The fact that I support what you have said in general terms and specifically about blatant violation of committed relationsxhips could help in that regard, but I wonder if it will just land me in hot water too.
Hot water can be very healing... just think "hot springs" and hop on in. Seriously, I'd love to have you weigh in. You're obviously seeing something I'm not.
First, no, you haven't answered my questions. Here there are again:
Why are appearances your main concern, jimmie?
What do you mean, sin will spread? How does sin spread? Just by knowing that someone else is sinning, you might commit the same sin? Do you REALLY believe God is sanctifying you? If so, why are you so fearful of other people's sin infecting you?
As to your question about what you should do in these situations: WHAT situations? You mean the ones where somebody isn't secretive enough about their sin so people outside the church might find out about it? The ones that might hurt your church's reputation? The sins of other people that you think are somehow going to cause YOU to sin just by knowing about them? I'd say, first and foremost, as a church, address YOUR motivation and YOUR spiritual health. Once you've done that, you'll know better how to handle situations.
Pleroo, first you say that it looks like appearance is the concern and then go on as if it wer an established fact; it is not. The point of the situation given as an example was that people were openly violating their committed relationships (and in my faith tradition those relationships are under the care of the Meeting, for support and aid). The problem is that blatant and continued disregard of commitments is unhealthy for trlationships and for the society in which they occur. Disregarding that fact can and mosat likely would give a greater sense of freedom in that regard to those who might be wavering on the cusp of violating such trust.
I hope that covers your questions for jimmiej and you will consider proactive thinking in that regard rather than reacting to the kind of opposition you have met with from more narrow minded representativces of conservative elements of faith.
First, no, you haven't answered my questions. Here there are again:
Why are appearances your main concern, jimmie?
What do you mean, sin will spread? How does sin spread? Just by knowing that someone else is sinning, you might commit the same sin? Do you REALLY believe God is sanctifying you? If so, why are you so fearful of other people's sin infecting you?
As to your question about what you should do in these situations: WHAT situations? You mean the ones where somebody isn't secretive enough about their sin so people outside the church might find out about it? The ones that might hurt your church's reputation? The sins of other people that you think are somehow going to cause YOU to sin just by knowing about them? I'd say, first and foremost, as a church, address YOUR motivation and YOUR spiritual health. Once you've done that, you'll know better how to handle situations.
These are your second or third set of questions. How many more questions will you have? When will I get your answer?
Pleroo, first you say that it looks like appearance is the concern and then go on as if it wer an established fact; it is not.
Here's what Jimmie said when I asked what he meant by "public sins":
Quote:
Something that is consistently visible to others.
It damages the testimony of Jesus and His church before the world. We see that in the news all the time. The church should be different from the world. Also, sin is like a cancer. If not dealt with, it will spread. Finally, Christians are to be set apart from sin and not let it reign (rule) in our bodies.
According to scripture, excommunication should be a last resort, when the help of loving Christian brothers and sisters does not help.
Not sure why you think that's not about appearances?
That's not YOUR motivation, based on what you've said below, but it IS jimmie's church's motivation based on his own words.
Quote:
The point of the situation given as an example was that people were openly violating their committed relationships (and in my faith tradition those relationships are under the care of the Meeting, for support and aid). The problem is that blatant and continued disregard of commitments is unhealthy for trlationships and for the society in which they occur. Disregarding that fact can and mosat likely would give a greater sense of freedom in that regard to those who might be wavering on the cusp of violating such trust...
I hope that covers your questions for jimmiej and you will consider proactive thinking in that regard rather than reacting to the kind of opposition you have met with from more narrow minded representativces of conservative elements of faith.
Jimmie was giving criteria for "public sin" as a whole, not just one example of it. That is what I was responding to. But, in that specific example, if the spouses of the people who were having an affair brought this before their church, and one of the church's main motivations for how they handle such a situation is to protect the church's reputation, that is going to have a huge impact on how they handle it, wouldn't you say? The only other criteria jimmie mentioned is to stop sin from spreading to the rest of the church. Nothing about actually helping any of the people involved. The fact that he never even mentioned that as one of their church's motivations is very telling, Nate. It's not about reacting to anything from my past, but responding to what Jimmie has said. The fact that what he said is right in line with what I've heard from my own former church body, however, perhaps gives me some insight into it that you don't have.
Quote:
Disregarding that fact can and most likely would give a greater sense of freedom in that regard to those who might be wavering on the cusp of violating such trust.
I don't recall saying anything about disregarding it. But church discipline (it's very moniker is disturbing -- if you believe that GOD is in the business of disciplining God's children, why do you think humans should usurp that responsibility?) and excommunication isn't the only way to address such a situation, Nate. As to other people being on the "cusp" of violating commitments and trust and being pushed over the edge, you really think that shaming and shunning someone else is going to change their hearts? Of course not. Might it keep them from acting on it? Maybe, but I thought Christianity was about an inward change which results in outward changes, not just whitewashing the tomb. And maybe what that kind of church "discipline" will do is just ensure that other people are very careful to keep their "sinful" desires and actions very secretive, eh?
What happened to building people up and encouraging them and dwelling on what real, healthy commitment is?
These are your second or third set of questions. How many more questions will you have? When will I get your answer?
I did answer you, Jimmie.
You want a formula for dealing with things, a checklist. How about you (as a church) check your motivations for WHY you feel the need to "discipline" people? It's fear-based, Jimmie. Nothing good comes out of fear.
You want a formula for dealing with things, a checklist. How about you (as a church) check your motivations for WHY you feel the need to "discipline" people? It's fear-based, Jimmie. Nothing good comes out of fear.
Fear of what? What should we have done? Nothing? Something?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
