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Well, any translation that says "forces of hell" when it should say "gates of hell" is simply not translated accurately. To a first-century Jewish convert to Christianity (e.g. Peter), the "gates of hell" would have had absolutely zero sinister connotations. It would meant simply "the entrance to the underworld" (where the dead resided as they awaited their judgment). Both the righteous and the wicked would have been there and Christ was saying that His Church would penetrate even into this realm.
not even death shall stand against the Church- so why believe it would become corrupt- with death silencing the truth-
Christ is risen from the dead destroying death by death and upon those in the tomb bestowing life -
I don't think the idea of a Trinity--or not--separates anyone from God. Where in Scripture is that recorded?
I've heard many a Trinitarian state that Jesus never "changed" the Word of God. Okay, the primary basis of Jewish faith was Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel: "The Lord our God, the Lord is one." One can make up any number of stories to mean "one" really means three, but how did the Hebrews practice that verse? I do believe it was as ONE God, not three in One. Moses' doctrine was ONENESS. If God was ONE God in the OT, it is difficult to maintain that He became Three in the NT.
So how did many early church fathers say believe?
Ignatius of Antioch depicted Jesus Christ as the suffering body of a bodiless Spirit-God who cannot suffer. Ignatius depicted Jesus Christ as the Father dwelling in the body of a mortal man.
Polycarp of Smyrna (69-155 AD) was a disciple of the Apostle John. Polycarp endorsed Ignatius' teachings, calling him an example of holiness, and urged the Philippians to follow his example.
Another early Church father, named Noetus, who lived around 130 AD was also said to be a MODALIST - that is, ONENESS. In reality, God does not even have three modes. He is ONE Spirit, incarnate in the body of Jesus Christ.
The historian Hippolytus said that Noetus believed that “Jesus confessed Himself to be the SON to those who saw Him, while to those who could receive it He did not hide the fact that He was the Father.” [/SIZE][/SIZE]
Irenaeus, who lived from about 135-200 AD, said, "The Father is that which is invisible about the Son, and the Son is that which is visible about the Father. The Father is God revealing Himself, and the SON is God revealed."
In 180 AD, Sabellius taught that "The Father and the Son are the SAME." He asserted that Father, Son and Holy Ghost were NOT distinct persons, but modes of one divine person.
The first Trinitarian, Tertullian, in 200 AD, admitted that the ONENESS APOSTOLICS "always constitute the majority of believers."
In 265 AD, the Bishop of Rome was Dionysius. Dionysius complained about those who "divide and cut to pieces that most sacred doctrine of the Church of God, the Divine Monarchy, making it as if it were three powers and partitive substances and godheads three." In other words, in 265 AD, the Bishop of Rome condemned the doctrine of the Trinity that was gaining acceptance.
Servetus said, "Christ is in the Father as a voice from the speaker. He and the Father are one, as the ray and the sun are one light. An amazing mystery is that God can thus be conjoined with man and man with God. A great wonder that He has taken to Himself the body of Christ that it should be His peculiar dwelling place."
In later centuries, after the doctrine of the Trinity had taken hold, a number of other prominent men stood opposed to the idea:
In 1531, Michael Servetus published a paper entitled, "THE ERROR OF THE TRINITY," in which he expounded the doctrine of the Oneness of God. For that paper, he was burned at the stake.
]In 1668, William Penn (the founder of Pennsylvania) was imprisoned in the Tower of London for writing a powerful anti-Trinitarian tract called, "The Sandy Foundation Shaken," in which he declared,
"Must I deny His Divinity because I justly reject the Popish School Personality? It is manifest, then, ...that though I may deny the Trinity of separate persons in one Godhead, yet I do not consequentially deny the Deity of Jesus Christ."
If the Trinity is a "critical" doctrine, then fundamentalists have now still ANOTHER verse of scripture that must be explained away.
In Isaiah 43:10-11 God speaks to the prophet stating, "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.
It appears quite difficult to state the Jewish Oneness Doctrine is from God, and then get to the NT and abandon it. Did the New Covenant do away with the ONENESS of God?
These are interesting concepts to puzzle over. I'm probably a Trinitarian (by legacy, not by spiritual sight), but I don't think it makes one bit of difference except to Pharisees.
I don't think the idea of a Trinity--or not--separates anyone from God. Where in Scripture is that recorded?
I've heard many a Trinitarian state that Jesus never "changed" the Word of God. Okay, the primary basis of Jewish faith was Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel: "The Lord our God, the Lord is one." One can make up any number of stories to mean "one" really means three, but how did the Hebrews practice that verse? I do believe it was as ONE God, not three in One. Moses' doctrine was ONENESS. If God was ONE God in the OT, it is difficult to maintain that He became Three in the NT.
So how did many early church fathers say believe?
Ignatius of Antioch depicted Jesus Christ as the suffering body of a bodiless Spirit-God who cannot suffer. Ignatius depicted Jesus Christ as the Father dwelling in the body of a mortal man.
Polycarp of Smyrna (69-155 AD) was a disciple of the Apostle John. Polycarp endorsed Ignatius' teachings, calling him an example of holiness, and urged the Philippians to follow his example.
Another early Church father, named Noetus, who lived around 130 AD was also said to be a MODALIST - that is, ONENESS. In reality, God does not even have three modes. He is ONE Spirit, incarnate in the body of Jesus Christ.
The historian Hippolytus said that Noetus believed that “Jesus confessed Himself to be the SON to those who saw Him, while to those who could receive it He did not hide the fact that He was the Father.” [/SIZE][/SIZE]
Irenaeus, who lived from about 135-200 AD, said, "The Father is that which is invisible about the Son, and the Son is that which is visible about the Father. The Father is God revealing Himself, and the SON is God revealed."
In 180 AD, Sabellius taught that "The Father and the Son are the SAME." He asserted that Father, Son and Holy Ghost were NOT distinct persons, but modes of one divine person.
The first Trinitarian, Tertullian, in 200 AD, admitted that the ONENESS APOSTOLICS "always constitute the majority of believers."
In 265 AD, the Bishop of Rome was Dionysius. Dionysius complained about those who "divide and cut to pieces that most sacred doctrine of the Church of God, the Divine Monarchy, making it as if it were three powers and partitive substances and godheads three." In other words, in 265 AD, the Bishop of Rome condemned the doctrine of the Trinity that was gaining acceptance.
Servetus said, "Christ is in the Father as a voice from the speaker. He and the Father are one, as the ray and the sun are one light. An amazing mystery is that God can thus be conjoined with man and man with God. A great wonder that He has taken to Himself the body of Christ that it should be His peculiar dwelling place."
In later centuries, after the doctrine of the Trinity had taken hold, a number of other prominent men stood opposed to the idea:
In 1531, Michael Servetus published a paper entitled, "THE ERROR OF THE TRINITY," in which he expounded the doctrine of the Oneness of God. For that paper, he was burned at the stake.
]In 1668, William Penn (the founder of Pennsylvania) was imprisoned in the Tower of London for writing a powerful anti-Trinitarian tract called, "The Sandy Foundation Shaken," in which he declared,
"Must I deny His Divinity because I justly reject the Popish School Personality? It is manifest, then, ...that though I may deny the Trinity of separate persons in one Godhead, yet I do not consequentially deny the Deity of Jesus Christ."
If the Trinity is a "critical" doctrine, then fundamentalists have now still ANOTHER verse of scripture that must be explained away.
In Isaiah 43:10-11 God speaks to the prophet stating, "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.
It appears quite difficult to state the Jewish Oneness Doctrine is from God, and then get to the NT and abandon it. Did the New Covenant do away with the ONENESS of God?
These are interesting concepts to puzzle over. I'm probably a Trinitarian (by legacy, not by spiritual sight), but I don't think it makes one bit of difference except to Pharisees.
Most of you know what I think of them.
Well my friend, here's a little hint on that 3 headed hydra your pondering...It was formulated to put the minds of the masses under it's domination, by its unfathomable nature, in an attempet to conquer by the hidious genius, of a more brilliant mind. Hey! don't fix it if it an't broke...
Okay, so do you believe that the human spirit lives on after death and continues to exist outside of the body until the body is resurrected, or do you believe that the spirit also "dies" along with the physical body?
The spirit has no consciousness, it is the life force. When it is returned to a body the "person" is again alive and conscious. When the spirit leaves, a person is ... dead and gone. God has the spirit return to Him, so we are alive to Him and when he returns it, we live again. Notice in the resurrections by Jesus it will say and the spirit returned or similar. Life once again was in the body.
not even death shall stand against the Church- so why believe it would become corrupt- with death silencing the truth-
Christ is risen from the dead destroying death by death and upon those in the tomb bestowing life -
Death did not silence the truth, the church tried to and failed. the church became weed filled, but wheat was still growing, it didn't choke it all out. Hell/the Grave did not silence all believers. Weeds just filled the church.
The behavior of the church(s) proves it, killing of those who simply owned a Bible????? Torture and abuse in a satanic way, "inquisition", Active involvement in supporting Nations, like Putin's Russia by the EOC, to drive away their religious opponents. Weed filled churches. More of their members have been killed by fellow members, with their clergy's blessing, than by unbelievers.
and it did, as (and unfortunately I don't remember a scripture for this off hand) but it says in the creed that during the 3 days between the crucifixion and the resurrection, that's what Christ was doing, conquering the grave, the underworld.
You got it.
Quote:
That last line is the one where we seem to disagree. The church was never so corrupted as to even temporarily die out, it never failed, it was never beaten.
Do you really want to talk about whether there was really an apostasy of the early Christian Church in this thread? It's your thread, and I'll go with your decision, but it seems to me that an entirely new thread is in order. Otherwise, your original topic will end up getting completely derailed.
not even death shall stand against the Church- so why believe it would become corrupt- with death silencing the truth-
Christ is risen from the dead destroying death by death and upon those in the tomb bestowing life -
Oops... You seem to have forgotten something, spmaiorca:
Quote:
Originally Posted by spmaiorca
I am ending my involvement in this discussion - as this little exchange shows that you are either unable or unwilling to comprehend what someone else is saying and will just naturally twist the words to the Mormon definitions
I don't think the idea of a Trinity--or not--separates anyone from God. Where in Scripture is that recorded?
Nowhere.
Quote:
These are interesting concepts to puzzle over. I'm probably a Trinitarian (by legacy, not by spiritual sight), but I don't think it makes one bit of difference except to Pharisees.
And I'm not a Trinitarian, but I totally agree with the part of your response that I put in underlined boldface type.
So the soul doesn't die, didn't Satan start that lie. Ezekiel 18:4 Surprise the Soul dies!!
Satan didn't start anything...
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