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And I'm surprised that what I asked is difficult for you.
Why would you think that a person who believes in God but who does not believe that the bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God would insist that you have to accept what it says without debate?
I wouldn't. I would simply ask such a person why the Bible has any more significance than any other book - as regards morality for instance. and as regards the believing in God, why they believe in God? If it is the Bible, that is doubtfully reliable - as they ought to agree (cue the 'as reliable as Caesar's memoirs' argument) or if on personal experience, that is nothing to do with the Bible anyway and the Bible just happens to be the Holy Book of the particular religion where they were raised.
If however, we are talking about someone who talks up the Bible as an authoritative basis for morality, society and hopes of an afterlife, then they should be such a person that should not cherry -pick the Bible, since they should see it as substantially totally relevant and true. if even if they are prepared to accept that there are errors.
I take back the 'difficult' remark. This does get a bit involved. But it does shake out on examination.
I would simply ask such a person why the Bible has any more significance than any other book - as regards morality for instance.
Well, being such a person, I can only answer for myself, of course, and the answer is that it doesn't.
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and as regards the believing in God, why they believe in God? If it is the Bible, that is doubtfully reliable - as they ought to agree (cue the 'as reliable as Caesar's memoirs' argument) or if on personal experience, that is nothing to do with the Bible anyway and the Bible just happens to be the Holy Book of the particular religion where they were raised.
Yes, I agree.
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If however, we are talking about someone who talks up the Bible as an authoritative basis for morality, society and hopes of an afterlife, then they should be such a person that should not cherry -pick the Bible, since they should see it as substantially totally relevant and true. if even if they are prepared to accept that there are errors.
I take back the 'difficult' remark. This does get a bit involved. But it does shake out on examination.
You want to walk this line of saying that atheists can pick and choose from the bible what is relevant, but theists who understand that the bible has errors can't. Why? On what basis do you make that judgment for them?
Well, being such a person, I can only answer for myself, of course, and the answer is that it doesn't.
Yes, I agree.
You want to walk this line of saying that atheists can pick and choose from the bible what is relevant, but theists who understand that the bible has errors can't. Why? On what basis do you make that judgment for them?
Yes. Atheists -in fact anyone who takes humanist morality rather than a Bible based one, or any area of study that does not take the Bible as reliable - can pock and choose. Not because of what they like, but because of what they already take to be valid on reason and evidence. perhaps that point was needed to clear up misunderstanding.
Essentially, the Bible may coincide with what we take to be good and true and we may take the quote to illustrate that truth.
I suppose I make the judgement on reason. It would be a poor world where we couldn't make such judgements. We all do - but some are willing to accept correction.
As I recall, I was not so much talking about God -believers (let alone Theists) but those who claim the Bible as an authority. We get them all the time here, whether they are saying that Bible -based values should be the basic of our society and morality or they are trotting out Bible-quotes as evidence of this or that claim.
Those people, taking the Bible as a reliable authority of morality or knowledge must be self deluding and dishonest on picking and choosing what they like. It is evidently clear that they are using their own judgement on what is good and true and dissecting the Bible on that basis. That done, they pretend that the bits they like have some kind of authority above and beyond what we judge to be good and true.
If you don't see that this sort of behaviour is hypocritical and dishonest (even if they don't realize it) I don't know how I can explain it you.
Yes. Atheists -in fact anyone who takes humanist morality rather than a Bible based one, or any area of study that does not take the Bible as reliable - can pock and choose. Not because of what they like, but because of what they already take to be valid on reason and evidence. perhaps that point was needed to clear up misunderstanding.
Essentially, the Bible may coincide with what we take to be good and true and we may take the quote to illustrate that truth.
I suppose I make the judgement on reason. It would be a poor world where we couldn't make such judgements. We all do - but some are willing to accept correction.
As I recall, I was not so much talking about God -believers (let alone Theists) but those who claim the Bible as an authority. We get them all the time here, whether they are saying that Bible -based values should be the basic of our society and morality or they are trotting out Bible-quotes as evidence of this or that claim.
Those people, taking the Bible as a reliable authority of morality or knowledge must be self deluding and dishonest on picking and choosing what they like. It is evidently clear that they are using their own judgement on what is good and true and dissecting the Bible on that basis. That done, they pretend that the bits they like have some kind of authority above and beyond what we judge to be good and true.
If you don't see that this sort of behaviour is hypocritical and dishonest (even if they don't realize it) I don't know how I can explain it you.
This is why I asked, in my first post, if I was misunderstanding you...
So, cherry picking is a good thing when an atheist does it, but if someone believes there is a God and cherry picks, it's hypocritical and dishonest? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Perhaps you mean that if someone cherry picks from the bible while insisting it is the infallible and inerrant authoritative word of God, that is hypocritical?
So, you are directing these comments about cherry picking only to those who insist the bible is the inerrant, infallible authoritative word of God and insist that everyone else must accept it as such as well. That's what I was trying to determine. Thank you. Obviously, it makes no sense to say that a Christian or other theist who does not view the bible in such a way is hypocritical for cherry-picking, yet I have read these types of comments from some atheists before. I thought you were one of them, so wanted to take the opportunity to have such a judgment explained.
You posters are too smart for me, but I get your take on religion although a segment of christian religions as diverse as many are offer a morality check on a fickle human race drawn in to distracting affluencia, sin inappropriate behavior, lack of nurturing of children in good vs evil not withstanding the parent(s). All that said is the OTHER portion left over from the partial or segment of religion is doctrinal manmade nonsense. So a direct relationship with God via the likes of a evangelical nondenoms might provide the key in escaping the "club" the " organization" of those "only way" religions and their bondage ( some exceptions based on "real " pastors who are out there to tap.)
This is why I asked, in my first post, if I was misunderstanding you...
So, cherry picking is a good thing when an atheist does it, but if someone believes there is a God and cherry picks, it's hypocritical and dishonest? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Perhaps you mean that if someone cherry picks from the bible while insisting it is the infallible and inerrant authoritative word of God, that is hypocritical?
So, you are directing these comments about cherry picking only to those who insist the bible is the inerrant, infallible authoritative word of God and insist that everyone else must accept it as such as well. That's what I was trying to determine. Thank you. Obviously, it makes no sense to say that a Christian or other theist who does not view the bible in such a way is hypocritical for cherry-picking, yet I have read these types of comments from some atheists before. I thought you were one of them, so wanted to take the opportunity to have such a judgment explained.
Yupperz!
more theist and atheist need to stand up FOR cherry picky and apologetics. The evidence shows that the fundamentalist in both belief systems are wrong and that we don't have enough information to set any belief in stone. well, 'cept the rock record.
simply put. cherry picking and apologetics mean adjusting to new information. It means adjusting an oldie but a goodie to match the needs of the society you live in today. They are good things and both atheist and theist should do them. It doesn't mean we have to be wishy washy but there is no reason that we cn't be unsure. In fact, I say if ya aint unsure you are a fundy. Only fundiez can't understand such simple notions. which is surprising because they are so simple.
for example. "thy shall not kill". well any fool can see that means it's ok to defend yourself and not be happy about doing it.
more theist and atheist need to stand up FOR cherry picky and apologetics. The evidence shows that the fundamentalist in both belief systems are wrong and that we don't have enough information to set any belief in stone. well, 'cept the rock record.
simply put. cherry picking and apologetics mean adjusting to new information. It means adjusting an oldie but a goodie to match the needs of the society you live in today. They are good things and both atheist and theist should do them. It doesn't mean we have to be wishy washy but there is no reason that we cn't be unsure. In fact, I say if ya aint unsure you are a fundy. Only fundiez can't understand such simple notions. which is surprising because they are so simple.
for example. "thy shall not kill". well any fool can see that means it's ok to defend yourself and not be happy about doing it.
You and I seem to be on the same page most of the time.
A man bent on finding excuses is going to find them.
Ever had your face so close to a tapestry, the only thing you could see is the fibers?
This the most of you.
I can see that many of you did not take reading comprehension in school, or you couldn't see past the point the teacher was making.
A lot of people are that way , it's programing.
Jesus said," few there be that find it" He wasn't kidding.
No matter how many times I've shared it, no one listens with their heart, because their heart is their EGO bent on defending them self and the investment in their education.
Your education does not impress God in the slightest, nor does it have any value on an eternal level, especially since most of it is skewed .
Coming to God for His tutelage is not addition, but replacement, but more than that, It is God's design to be "the" source of knowledge.
Adams sin was circumventing God's design, much the way men circumvent His design in many other ways.
Secondly you fail to comprehend that God is God and not a man, He is creator and not the created ,so though as man we have specific limitations in what we are "permitted"/able to do .
God is not subjected to our limitations, regardless of what He does , it is His to do with as HE chooses ,it is not a democracy nor a republic ,there is no voting, you have NO rights .
You look at an ant colony and destroy it because they are an inconvienience to you, and hardly take notice.
In reality God could justifiably wash this whole planet clean, and start again, time is not an issue with God .
The harvest God is after ,are those that choose to love Him .
Those are the ones that get His special attention.
Every thing else are filler like the stuffing you throw in a box to protect the product inside.
When it get's to point B the stuffing is discarded.
The only way to become the product, and not the stuffing, is to change your life, but the more you've invested in rebellion, the harder it is to get closer to receiving of God.
You've proven rebellion for so long, and demand His compromise, rather than seeing you need to be the one making compromise.
God didn't create that problem, you did, and made quite an investment out of it, religious or not.
Jesus said ," God is Spirit, and they that worship Him Must worship Him in Spirit and in truth."
With out being born of the Spirit, man has no access, no clue, no hope.
Only Jesus can perform that miracle .
A man bent on finding excuses is going to find them.
Ever had your face so close to a tapestry, the only thing you could see I the fibers?
This the most of you.
I can see that many of you did not take reading comprehension in school, or you couldn't see past the point the teacher was making.
A lot of people are that way , it's programing. Jesus said," few there be that find it" He wasn't kidding.
No matter how many times I've shared it, no one listens with their heart, because their heart is their EGO bent on defending them self and the investment in their education.
Your education does not impress God in the slightest nor does it have any value on an eternal level especially since most of it is skewed .
Coming to God for His tutelage is not addition, but replacement, but more than that, It is God's design to be "the" source of knowledge.
Adams sin was circumventing God's design, much the way men circumvent His design in many other ways.
Secondly you fail to comprehend that God is God and not a man He is creator and not the created ,so though as man we have specific limitations in what we are "permitted"/able to do , God is not subjected to our limitations, regardless of what He does , it is His to do with as HE chooses ,it is not a democracy nor a republic ,there is no voting, you have NO rights .
You look at an ant colony and destroy it because they are an inconvienience to you, and hardly take notice.
In reality God could justifiably wash this whole planet clean, and start again, time is not an issue with God .
The harvest God is after ,are those that choose to love Him .
Those are the ones that get His special attention.
Every thing else are filler like the stuffing you throw in a box to protect the product inside.
When it get's to point B the stuffing is discarded.
The only way to become the product, and not the stuffing, is to change your life, but the more you've invested in rebellion, the harder it is to get closer to receiving of God.
You've proven rebellion for so long, and demand His compromise, rather than seeing you need to be the one making compromise.
God didn't create that problem, you did, and made quite an investment out of it, religious or not.
Jesus said ," God is Spirit, and they that worship Him Must worship Him in Spirit and in truth." With out being born of the Spirit, man has no access, no clue, no hope.
Only Jesus can perform that miracle .
Why do you feel the need to share that only Jesus can perform the miracle that will give people a clue, hope and access, and he is only going to perform this miracle for a few? I assume you are one of those few, so are you just gloating because you're "in" and the rest of us aren't? That's not very sporting of you.
The younger millennials are not necessarily leaving faith. They are leaving the idea of faith as a weapon used against another person.
Since this nation is allegedly Christian, what have we shown our young? They have grown up with war, without shared sacrifice. We send our young to war. For what? Christian values?
This Christian nation, has systematically discriminated against women, and minorities, and the LGTBQ community. It can not be hidden. This is the internet. There is no hiding. Racism and sexism is not anonymous, and there is accountability that goes hand in hand with freedom on the net.
Millennials are people of faith. They do not need organized religion. What has Christianity done to deserve them? Nothing.
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This does get a bit involved. But it does shake out on examination.
