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I have REPEATEDLY challenged others to present just one Bible text that addresses homosexuality in any other situation than 'idolatry' (or perhaps the intent to rape) but while they continue to condemn homosexuality they remain conveniently oblivious to my challenge.
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Originally Posted by cfa-ish
Are you referring to the New Testament when you say Bible?
I'm referring to the entire Bible.
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Originally Posted by cfa-ish
There are plenty of condemnations of homosexuality in the Old Testament.
Plenty? The anti-gay brigade know of only two ...the two passages found in Leviticus. They might also (incorrectly) use the Genesis account of Sodom and Gomorrah to bolster their efforts to vilify gay people. So, let us be generous and say 'three'. Plenty?
In actuality, there are NO condemnations of homosexuality in the Bible. There ARE references to same-gender sex practices affiliated with idolatry and temple prostitution that have nothing to do with the definition of the term 'homosexuality'. Heterosexual prostitution is also condemned in the Bible but 'heterosexuality' is not condemned. This is why no one has so far accepted my challenge to present supposedly said scriptures that condemn 'homosexuality'. Leviticus 18:22/20:13 certainly doesn't cut it and that's all they've got.
Before you get back to me, cfa-ish, think of what the actual definition of 'homosexuality' is to we today and bear in mind that the Bible authors would have known little to nothing about human sexuality. Also, if you previously had not known this, the word 'homosexual' did not appear in some Bibles until 1946. Moreover, this term was applied incorrectly to original passages of scripture that did not refer to homosexuality, certainly not given its present-day definition. ALSO, there was no term - obviously! - in their own language for something the ancient authors didn't know about.
SO, you will not find in the original Bible manuscripts an equivalent term for 'homosexuality' ...not in Hebrew, not in Aramaic, and not in Greek. You won't even find the terms 'homosexuality' and 'homosexual' in the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) since those words hadn't yet been invented. Those who continually state that the term 'arsenokoitai' (a term apparently made up by Paul in the New Testament) translates to 'homosexuality' are using the process of wishful thinking rather than appealing to evidence since the precise meaning for that term is unknown.
Plenty? The anti-gay brigade know of only two ...the two passages found in Leviticus. They might also (incorrectly) use the Genesis account of Sodom and Gomorrah to bolster their efforts to vilify gay people. So, let us be generous and say 'three'. Plenty?
In actuality, there are NO condemnations of homosexuality in the Bible. There ARE references to same-gender sex practices affiliated with idolatry and temple prostitution that have nothing to do with the definition of the term 'homosexuality'. Heterosexual prostitution is also condemned in the Bible but 'heterosexuality' is not condemned. This is why no one has so far accepted my challenge to present supposedly said scriptures that condemn 'homosexuality'. Leviticus 18:22/20:13 certainly doesn't cut it and that's all they've got.
Before you get back to me, cfa-ish, think of what the actual definition of 'homosexuality' is to we today and bear in mind that the Bible authors would have known little to nothing about human sexuality. Also, if you previously had not known this, the word 'homosexual' did not appear in some Bibles until 1946. Moreover, this term was applied incorrectly to original passages of scripture that did not refer to homosexuality, certainly not given its present-day definition. ALSO, there was no term - obviously! - in their own language for something the ancient authors didn't know about.
SO, you will not find in the original Bible manuscripts an equivalent term for 'homosexuality' ...not in Hebrew, not in Aramaic, and not in Greek. You won't even find the terms 'homosexuality' and 'homosexual' in the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) since those words hadn't yet been invented. Those who continually state that the term 'arsenokoitai' (a term apparently made up by Paul in the New Testament) translates to 'homosexuality' are using the process of wishful thinking rather than appealing to evidence since the precise meaning for that term is unknown.
For any homosexuals that read this. Please understand that this is an attempt to obfuscate the Truth. The Bible does show that homosexuality is a sin. This has been proven time and time again this thread.
Please notice as you research this how those that favor this sin have to portray the specific verses as mentioning "male prostitutes". The reality is that homosexuality is a sin. They will want you to believe (as if your stupid) that you can't believe in the scriptures because the word "homosexuality" was not mentioned in the bible. This to me is one the most telling pitfalls of the homosexual crowd. Think about it, they really expect us to believe that the because an English word in the modern era called "homosexual" couldn't be in the bible means that homosexuality can't be a sin. I know that sex is an English word but I'm sure people had sex in the times that the Bible was written but I dont' think I can find that word either. You see, they wont to pray upon naive minds. They THINK that for some reason they accomplish their goals and delight in what they preached and pat each other on the back. It is a sin what they are doing along with the homosexuality they preach. They say here that Paul suddenly just made up a term. Really? Think about it - they are accusing the Apostle Paul of making up terms.
The Apostle Paul will be judging these same person in a few short years from now.
OT personalities are not the standard. Christ is the standard.
If Christ is the standard, then you should live and speak as He did. He had no problem with "eunuchs from birth" which HAD to be homosexuals. It is simply not scientifically possible for eunuchs from birth to have been those males born without penis or testicles. That only happens in approximately one in five million male births. All of Palestine had about 500,000 people of both sexes. His disciples would have no idea what He was talking about.
But then talking sense isn't what your jesus does.
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Proof that all except Christ are sinners.
Church leaders are not the standard. Christ is the standard.
That poor attempt at deflection still doesn't refute the fact that Paul had to specifically say church LEADERS should marry one woman. If YOUR standard, not God's was in effect, then Paul could have told ALL Christians that they should marry only one woman. He didn't. Are you now saying there was a flaw in the "inerrant and infallible" word that God whispered into Paul's ear? Or perhaps God forgot that "standard" you created for Him in Genesis.
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
The Bible describing the activity an abomination (Leviticus) and degrading (Romans) is not me putting beliefs into the Bible.
It also says that those who commit such acts should be put to death. Do you accept the abomination part but reject God's "word" with regard to executing them? If not, why do you speak against those of us who say BOTH parts should be ignored?
A little hypocrisy is good for your soul?
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Just for your reference, since you keep bringing it up because you believe it gives you leverage... just as God suggests we forgive others - I have forgiven those regarding their mistreatment of slaves. It's not an issue for me. Speaking of reading beliefs into the Bible - slavery is not a sin. Mistreatment of people is a sin. I obviously don't want anyone to be enslaved - and I wouldn't call it a God given right, but it is not a sin - unless you can point it out to me.
Now I do like what you have to say in the highlighted. It makes sense. On the other hand you ignore how many fundamentalist Christians regarded slavery as right and moral--just as you regard homosexuality as wrong and immoral.
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James Thornwell, a minister, wrote in 1860, "The parties in this conflict are not merely Abolitionists and slaveholders, they are Atheists, Socialists, Communists, Red Republicans, Jacobins on the one side and the friends of order and regulated freedom on the other."
The Southern Argument for Slavery [ushistory.org]
Just because the Bible states a thing, and just because numerous Christians argue that their discrimination against blacks or homosexuals is right, does not make it so. Morality is bigger than the Bible, particularly when one tries to incorporate its two plus millennia into modern day society. In every case I am aware of, it has always been to put some group of people down and keep others in power. It is a shame that as a black man you stand for oppression rather than liberation.
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
I don't say anything similar to your quote. I expect unbelievers to sin.
If you really believe in the Spirit of Christ directing what a believer says, then you would not be telling me what I should say.
You may not openly state what I posted, but in no way do any of your posts stand against such statements.
Yours is a love that is alarmingly love-deficient.
Where are the toilets that you have been banned from using now (I saw it in the deep south as a teenager)? Now it is only transgender people that are so banned. Where are the cakes that you have been refused (I saw restaurants that wouldn't feed blacks). Now it is only gays. Where are the church fellowships and leadership positions from which you have been deemed disqualified (I was saved in a church that allowed no blacks)? But now it is gays who aren't worthy. Where are the parents who sent you to the curb as illegitimate and no longer their true child? Now it is just gay children disowned by their "god-fearing" evangelical parents. Where have you been dehumanized to the point of suicide all in the name of Jesus and the Bible? Gay people still have a great rate of suicide which psychologists indicate is partly due to the "love" you and your ilk show them.
It feels like your love of justice is much more powerful than your love of just us.
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Let me ask you a question - is adultery bad? Why or why not?
Did Jesus throw a stone at the woman caught in adultery? Why not. The BIBLE says she should have been executed, just like it says a man lying with a man should be executed. But something other than "sin" and what the Bible states was more important to Jesus.
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If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't know love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate. If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing. If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't have love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love.
I Cor. 13
Sorry, Dr. Rob, you are morally bankrupt regardless of the Scripture you quote, because you can't see homosexuals going through the same things your ancestors did.
I don't see love for the unlovable, only for those that qualify under your criteria. For this, I know, until our theology is love, we will always be leaning on our own understanding to the detriment and even destruction, of other people.
It's not that I don't believe you are filled with good intention and have tremendous God-adorned worth and value---I do. But I don't see Jesus in your posts. I see YOUR judgment passed off as God's.
He did not. If it was clear, there would be a passage that says "Verily I say unto you, a true marriage, pleasing to God, shall be ..." There is no such passage.
You are adding to Scripture; something you aren't supposed to do.
That's like suggesting heroin is a good thing because the Bible never OUTRIGHT condemns it.
So you believe Jesus affirmed heroin?
Fact is, Jesus DID affirm the Genesis account when he spoke of Adam. He did affirm that God created marriage as a man and woman, as the Scriptures testify. But hey..because he didn't EXPLICITLY say that a behavior that is outright condemned in Scripture is wrong...you think he was cool with it.
That's like suggesting heroin is a good thing because the Bible never OUTRIGHT condemns it.
So you believe Jesus affirmed heroin?
Fact is, Jesus DID affirm the Genesis account when he spoke of Adam. He did affirm that God created marriage as a man and woman, as the Scriptures testify. But hey..because he didn't EXPLICITLY say that a behavior that is outright condemned in Scripture is wrong...you think he was cool with it.
What specific behavior of any individuals did Jesus explicitly condemn to those individuals' faces?
Got a guess? It was "bible-believers" who used Scripture as a weapon to dehumanize others. Jesus had no problem with tax collectors or adulterers. He was indeed quite kind to them. But "bible-believers," like you, those who felt they knew and understood Scripture in order to tell others what pitiful sinners they were? What did He say about them? And it is quite clear.
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They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Matt 23:4
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Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Matt 23:13
You do not see yourself as others see you. Shutting homosexuals out of the kingdom of heaven (in your mind) while not getting near it yourself.
Every argument, and there are many, for homosexuals being created by God, for God, and to honor God, you reject while lifting yourself to a position of "authority" over them. It is a power play, not a God play, for if you were truly concerned about sin, then your many sins would keep you on your knees and enable you to see others in the same light God sees them---as invaluable as you are, rescued as you think you are, with many better Bible students than you.
If you were really into Jesus then your theology and Bible understanding wouldn't be the idolatrous, unmovable, and inerrant foundation upon which you lean, pompously standing as one who holds all the "clear teachings."
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--one of the greatest awakenings one can have in regard to conservative Evangelicalism is its capacity to deafen our ears to the cries of good people and to grant us nose-blindness to the smells of our own religious stench. If we'd only learn to listen, there is so much to learn. Yet, it's that learning of which we are afraid because of its call and capacity to require change.. Sadly, "Church" has long been resistant to listening, and, therefore , to learning what truly needs the renewing and healing power of transformation within.
Kratzer, Chris, Leatherbound Terrorism, Chapter 11, The Real Reason I Don't Go To Your Church
What specific behavior of any individuals did Jesus explicitly condemn to those individuals' faces?
Got a guess? It was "bible-believers" who used Scripture as a weapon to dehumanize others. Jesus had no problem with tax collectors or adulterers. He was indeed quite kind to them. But "bible-believers," like you, those who felt they knew and understood Scripture in order to tell others what pitiful sinners they were? What did He say about them? And it is quite clear.
Matt 23:4
Matt 23:13
You do not see yourself as others see you. Shutting homosexuals out of the kingdom of heaven (in your mind) while not getting near it yourself.
Every argument, and there are many, for homosexuals being created by God, for God, and to honor God, you reject while lifting yourself to a position of "authority" over them. It is a power play, not a God play, for if you were truly concerned about sin, then your many sins would keep you on your knees and enable you to see others in the same light God sees them---as invaluable as you are, rescued as you think you are, with many better Bible students than you.
If you were really into Jesus then your theology and Bible understanding wouldn't be the idolatrous, unmovable, and inerrant foundation upon which you lean, pompously standing as one who holds all the "clear teachings."
Kratzer, Chris, Leatherbound Terrorism, Chapter 11, The Real Reason I Don't Go To Your Church
Mother Teresa
The Chris Katzer comment is so damning but so true.
That's like suggesting heroin is a good thing because the Bible never OUTRIGHT condemns it.
So you believe Jesus affirmed heroin?
Fact is, Jesus DID affirm the Genesis account when he spoke of Adam. He did affirm that God created marriage as a man and woman, as the Scriptures testify. But hey..because he didn't EXPLICITLY say that a behavior that is outright condemned in Scripture is wrong...you think he was cool with it.
Don't try to put words in my mouth. I didn'y say anything about heroin.
It makes no difference what Jesus said about that Genesis passage since that isn't a definition of marriage either. Mentioning something isn't defining it. Good grief. Before the book of Genesis is over, several other kinds of marriage are mentioned, but you aren't claiming that those are definitions.
There is no clear and unambiguous definition of "marriage" in the Bible.
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