Tree first knowing good and evil (believers, quotes, translation, Old Testament)
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The Serpent is our animal nature, the source of all our desires and it is undiscriminating and incapable of knowing Good or evil. that is why we had to learn to discriminate for it. As Cain was told about sin, "its desire is for you, but you must master it." That is your assumption simply because they referred to them as examples of the principles they sought to teach. That is like saying that Aesop's fables are true because they are referenced to teach the principles they contain.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
That is your own interpretation. The serpent was outside of Adam and Eve and was the craftiest of all the animals that God made. Adam and Eve are not animals but Adam was to rule over the animals including the serpent, not his own, as you say "animal nature" which, I might add, is not in the Scriptures.
Where to start? Your misunderstanding and literalistic carnal mind is so far from any intersection with the purpose of the fable that I am at a loss as to how to make any connection with your mind on this issue. It is all symbolic and designed to convey to a very primitive intellect what the concept of Good and Evil is. It only exists within a consciousness, and these were the very first, newly created consciousnesses with no real knowledge or understanding to draw on. They needed to understand that the entire concept of Good and Evil results from the way their consciousness functions and interacts with its animal nature (instinct and motivation center, also known as the reptilian brain). (See the pictorial representation in the Serpent link above,)
For all other creatures, their reptilian brain is only minimally governed by cognition so they have no such concept. There are simply positive and negative outcomes for their behaviors with no realization of any higher distinction. They simply experience approach or avoidance reactions that can be learned and become conditioned through repeated experience. Our consciousness actually makes the higher cognitive distinctions known as Good and Evil, not mere conditioned reactions.
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If, as you said, Adam and Eve were good PRIOR to sinning, then how could they have a liar and murderer in them since the serpent is a liar and murderer from the beginning?
It is the indiscriminate nature of our inner drives and urges that causes all the conflict. To our reptilian brain, all responses to its drives are good regardless of the outcomes for any other creature or person. Seeking and protecting our survival and pleasure are its only guides, as well as avoiding any pain. You can see that under such an indiscriminate motivation system, the acts of lying (to avoid painful outcomes) or murder to survive or sate our anger or vengeance (as with Cain) would be innate from the very beginning of life. It has often been said that if an infant possessed the physical capabilities of a fully grown adult, it would be the most dangerously selfish creature on the planet.
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But Jesus and the writers of the New Testament didn't reference Aesop's fables. They quoted, sometimes at length, Old Testament writers. Jesus and Paul quoted Isaiah concerning God blinding Israel to the truth many years prior to Christ's appearance and Paul quoted the same passage years after Christ left. If the Old Testament was, as you suggest, written by ignorant barbarians, it cannot be said that God did not reveal the truth to them since Christ quoted the truth of the Old Testament.
Jesus CORRECTED the ignorant misunderstandings of the OT. That is what "lifting the veil" (blind minds) over reading the OT is all about.You know full well that Jesus contradicted what you claim is the inerrant word of God. "It has been said . . . But I say . . ." Jesus didn't just rely on the written word because they had failed miserably. Christ demonstrated unambiguously with His life and His death the true nature of God and now abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts."
Your misunderstanding and literalistic carnal mind is so far from any intersection with the purpose of the fable that I am at a loss as to how to make any connection with your mind on this issue.
I find no such thing in his understanding. The Bible is NOT mystical, nor does it speak mystically to us. It would appear your bias is also reflected in your user name. God and evil are personified in the Bible as God and Satan. If you can actually document where the Bible is using hyperbole vs literalness, that is a good thing, but in this regard the account of Genesis is a literal and historical account. Last time I looked history does not contain much hyperbole. It may have some metaphor in it, but all language does. To be specific, man had rule over ALL creatures as God stated in Gen 1:26 (NIV) and 2:19-20 (NIV), and it wasn't until Adam and Eve upset the proverbial apple cart, that they lost control of all that.
Where to start? Your misunderstanding and literalistic carnal mind is so far from any intersection with the purpose of the fable that I am at a loss as to how to make any connection with your mind on this issue. It is all symbolic and designed to convey to a very primitive intellect what the concept of Good and Evil is. It only exists within a consciousness, and these were the very first, newly created consciousnesses with no real knowledge or understanding to draw on. They needed to understand that the entire concept of Good and Evil results from the way their consciousness functions and interacts with its animal nature (instinct and motivation center, also known as the reptilian brain). (See the pictorial representation in the Serpent link above,)
For all other creatures, their reptilian brain is only minimally governed by cognition so they have no such concept. There are simply positive and negative outcomes for their behaviors with no realization of any higher distinction. They simply experience approach or avoidance reactions that can be learned and become conditioned through repeated experience. Our consciousness actually makes the higher cognitive distinctions known as Good and Evil, not mere conditioned reactions.It is the indiscriminate nature of our inner drives and urges that causes all the conflict. To our reptilian brain, all responses to its drives are good regardless of the outcomes for any other creature or person. Seeking and protecting our survival and pleasure are its only guides, as well as avoiding any pain. You can see that under such an indiscriminate motivation system, the acts of lying (to avoid painful outcomes) or murder to survive or sate our anger or vengeance (as with Cain) would be innate from the very beginning of life. It has often been said that if an infant possessed the physical capabilities of a fully grown adult, it would be the most dangerously selfish creature on the planet.
Jesus CORRECTED the ignorant misunderstandings of the OT. That is what "lifting the veil" (blind minds) over reading the OT is all about.You know full well that Jesus contradicted what you claim is the inerrant word of God. "It has been said . . . But I say . . ." Jesus didn't just rely on the written word because they had failed miserably. Christ demonstrated unambiguously with His life and His death the true nature of God and now abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts."
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Originally Posted by StanJP
I find no such thing in his understanding. The Bible is NOT mystical, nor does it speak mystically to us. It would appear your bias is also reflected in your user name. God and evil are personified in the Bible as God and Satan. If you can actually document where the Bible is using hyperbole vs literalness, that is a good thing, but in this regard the account of Genesis is a literal and historical account. Last time I looked history does not contain much hyperbole. It may have some metaphor in it, but all language does. To be specific, man had rule over ALL creatures as God stated in Gen 1:26 (NIV) and 2:19-20 (NIV), and it wasn't until Adam and Eve upset the proverbial apple cart, that they lost control of all that.
Another historical literalist believing in fables. Haven't any of you read the warning about those who actually believe fables??
Found an interesting verse in the Song of Songs.
5 Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness, leaning upon her beloved? Under the apple-tree I awakened thee; there thy mother was in travail with thee; there was she in travail and brought thee forth.
You're right, but there IS a literal tree that produced fruit that gave Adam and Eve the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
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