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Good ol' Hannibal---determined to keep our bacon out of the fire, where the cracklin' of pork grease is not quenched and the trichinosis dieth not.
Nope, that's just it, I don't see you guys going to a burning hell. I am not trying to save you, I don't believe anything like most Christians believe. If you are going to live forever then it's just a progression of being tested in this world and the next until you progress.
Nope, that's just it, I don't see you guys going to a burning hell. I am not trying to save you, I don't believe anything like most Christians believe. If you are going to live forever then it's just a progression of being tested in this world and the next until you progress.
How would you classify yourself, Hannibal: a fundamentalist Christian, a liberal Christian, a deist, or other?
How would you classify yourself, Hannibal: a fundamentalist Christian, a liberal Christian, a deist, or other?
I am a Messianic of sorts.
Understand that Jews and Christians don't have the same view of Satan and hell, Christians are looking at Jewish idioms spoken that they take literally when it is not speaking literally.
The Talmudists devote "to the sea of Sodom," any thing, that is destined to rejection and cursing, and that by no means is to be used.
"Let him devote the use of such a thing to the bituminous sea." "Let the price of an oblation for sin, the owner whereof is dead, depart into the salt sea.""The proselyte Aquila divided the inheritance with his brother a Gentile, and devoted the use and benefit of it to the salt sea. Of three doctors one saith, That he devoted the moneys of idolatry into the salt sea." Hence is that allusion, Revelation 20:14, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire."
Who is the beast, and who is the false prophet?
Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that worked miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Corinthians 15:26, 54;; 2 Esdras 7:31). The Scriptural source for the conception of "the lake of fire" lies in Genesis 19:24, where already the fire and the brimstone occur together, while the locality of the catastrophe described is the neighborhood of the Dead Sea. The association of the Dead Sea with this fearful judgment of God, together with the desolate appearance of the place, rendered it a striking figure for the scene of eschatological retribution.
Revelation 9 ~ WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIE.
The Fifth Trumpet 1Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. 2He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.
This bottomless pit is within a person.
Who is the beast and who is the false prophet?
These will be thrown into the lake of fire.
I AM THE BEAST
I AM THE FALSE PROPHET
I was born of a beast with the mind of the flesh, and I am also an individual who became vain in my own right, and if I choose to live by the flesh, and by the spirit of a false prophet calling fire down from heaven, I am the master of that house.
But I have been born again, and I am given a place to flee for a time until I would give birth and the beast along with the false prophet wait upon that birth and are terrified and angry.
The mind of the beast and the mind of the false prophet will be taken out of people and be cast into a sea to be forgotten.
Revelation is about an individual walk in that you have went all the way in a symbolic death in dying daily to the desires of the flesh until you come up to the day that no man knoweth only God,'' TISHRI 1 .''
You realize by what spirit you were walking in on Rosh Hashanah and you say to yourself,'' I am no prophet,'' and you become ashamed of your prophesy.
You are the Temple and the sacrifices are cut off in the middle of your 7 year walk, and you have to overcome on your own terms because those sacrifices were given to you to sustain you, bread to teach you, light to guide you, incense to pray for you.
God is giving you sacrifices as you are the temple, he is sustaining you in that he keeps the spirit of the beast far from you in protecting you from what you really are. He is like David singing to Saul. But if the sacrifices are cut off, then you will see your sin and who and what you really are and you will wonder to yourself saying,'' What is happening to me, who can stand against the beast?''
It is then that you realize that you are the beast and the false prophet and they have come up and killed you after the sacrifices are taken away and you realize just how evil you are, just how vain you are.
When you have realized the truth, it is then that the enemy within you becomes terrified. And here they were throwing a party because they had overcome you and killed you, they send presents to each other. But you have come up to Rosh Hashanah, the wedding ceremony and then you are stood up on your feet, resurrected from your death in the flesh and the enemy within will become ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIED, they can see you in the mirror, and where the sacrifices had been taken away, and you are shown your sins while they are laughing at your total failure, they become terrified when you have a face to face with God, and you put on strength to walk again. The sacrifices are begin again and you yourself become a sweet aroma.
An angel will come from heaven and take the spirit of the beast and the false prophet to lock them away, and they know it.
The ideas of Revelation are not about two great witnesses coming, but that you yourself are the two witnesses and you yourself are in a struggle to overcome the world, and Revelation is teaching how to do it.
It is written for all generations.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 01-01-2016 at 12:32 PM..
The word "hell" in "lowest hell" was not used by the Hebrew writer. Here is what was written. I will bold the word you have for "hell":
Deu 32:22 "For a fire will be kindled by My anger, and it shall glow unto the unseen beneath; it shall devour the earth and its crop, and it shall set aflame the foundations of the mountains."
The word "unseen" is Sheol in Hebrew and [h]ades in Greek. It is the tomb where, when interred after death, is no longer seen.
The above verse is not about "hell."
Did Jesus actually use the word "everlasting"? No. He used the adjective "AIWNIOS." It just means "pertaining to the eon."
And what did Jesus mean by "fire"? When Israel was held captive in Egypt 400+ years they were said to be in a furnace of fire. Was it a literal fire? Was Egypt a literal furnace?
What did Jesus mean by "devil and his angels"? Since Jesus is judging the nations as to how they treated Israel during their great tribulation of 3 1/2 years, this has to do with the nations. It says so in the text. Therefore I believe it should be "the adversary and his messengers." It has to do with adversarial nations and their treatment of Jesus' brethren. The messengers have to do with emissaries carrying messages to nations to enforce a pogrom against the brethren. These bad nations will go away into eonian chastening which will be like a fiery trial such as Israel had for 400+ years. That fire was prepared for the adversary [nation] and its messengers or emissaries.
I believe your translation is wanting.
But then why do most fundamentalists around here preach and teach to us that people who don't accept Jesus will burn for eternity in the fires of hell/lake of fire (same thing, basically). How can it be both? If Jesus said, "It's only for an age, not eternity" then why do the fundamentalists twist this around to try to make us believe he said it is forever without any hope of redemption?????
But then why do most fundamentalists around here preach and teach to us that people who don't accept Jesus will burn for eternity in the fires of hell/lake of fire (same thing, basically). How can it be both? If Jesus said, "It's only for an age, not eternity" then why do the fundamentalists twist this around to try to make us believe he said it is forever without any hope of redemption?????
Christians are reading from a book comprised of a culture and heritage full of idioms they don't wanna know. The New Testament is based upon the harvests and the comings and goings of the Temple are about what they do on harvest days.
Christians reject Jewish tradition and Jewish harvest and so how could they know what they are talking about? Jesus came speaking in parables and all those parables are only understood through the knowledge of the 8 Holy days, 7 feasts and an eighth. Revelation is written about Rosh Hashannah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, and Shemini Atzereth.
Everything said in Revelation concerns what is said on the harvest days and what the priest is doing in the temple on those days. If you don't know the design of the Temple and it's comings and goings along with the Torah portions with it's rich traditions, and rituals, then all you are doing is reading a book you couldn't understand.
The science of the Temple and the harvest days and what is said on the Holy days can't be undertood by people unwilling to learn it and you see idiom after idiom that looks like it means one thing when it means something quite different.
It's like people saying,'' that no man knows the day, only God knows.''
Every single person who keeps the feast days knows EXACTLY what day Yom Hakesseh is, and by saying no man knows the day is in fact saying,'' Tishri 1.''
If God comes to put your right eye out and wither your right arm, he has just saved you.
The man of sin will be revealed in all men but Christians look for a certain man.
The beast and the prophet are in me, and this evil inclination was a known concept but you get away from learning Jewish things, you wont learn the idioms.
All those idioms about Hell are not what people think they are and this is why Jews and Christians read different, Jews know what they worship while a gentile Christians reads something and takes it literal even if it is set in stone in thousands of years of tradition, they make up their own ideas because they don't know tradition.
This STUPID 666 thing and being marked in your forehead is a tradition dating back thousands of years before Christ but A Christian reads it and thinks it's some new thing in the world and suddenly an antichrist is gonna put a chip in you.
Being marked in your forehead and right hand is what God seals his people with, IF they keep his unleavened bread, his sabbaths, his feasts and the law is in his mouth, you get a seal.
But since the Christian rejects the known traditions and idioms, he makes his own.
It's like walking into the circle of fire into an ancient tribal people and then trying to explain what the smoke means, what the eagle means, what is done on Buffalo hunts. Like a white man walked into a camp not knowing Indian tradition.
A Christian will tell you that you need a Passover lamb as a sacrifice for sin and it aint for sin, but how could a Christian point a finger at you when in fact,'' THEY REJECT THE PASSOVER?''
How could a Christian say he has the holy ghost when he in fact, rejects Shavuot?
They will tell you that you need a Passover lamb and then turn around and say,'' Make sure you don't keep the Jewish Passover.''
How is death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire where they become,'' NO MORE.''
Revelation 20
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
The Lake of fire is the second death and although we see people being cast into the Lake of fire, we still see them elsewhere.
Revelation 21
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
But here they are also.
Revelation 22
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
But outside are dogs, the sexual immoral STILL THERE.
Just like the servant who did not watch for his master on the master's appointed visitation days, that servant will be cut in half and appointed his lot among the sinners.
Does God come down and literally cut his body in half?
But then why do most fundamentalists around here preach and teach to us that people who don't accept Jesus will burn for eternity in the fires of hell/lake of fire (same thing, basically). How can it be both? If Jesus said, "It's only for an age, not eternity" then why do the fundamentalists twist this around to try to make us believe he said it is forever without any hope of redemption?????
Okay, we've heard Hannibal's opinion. Does anybody else have some input to my question?
Originally Posted by Eusebius The word "hell" in "lowest hell" was not used by the Hebrew writer. Here is what was written. I will bold the word you have for "hell":
Deu 32:22 "For a fire will be kindled by My anger, and it shall glow unto the unseen beneath; it shall devour the earth and its crop, and it shall set aflame the foundations of the mountains."
The word "unseen" is Sheol in Hebrew and [h]ades in Greek. It is the tomb where, when interred after death, is no longer seen.
The above verse is not about "hell."
Did Jesus actually use the word "everlasting"? No. He used the adjective "AIWNIOS." It just means "pertaining to the eon."
And what did Jesus mean by "fire"? When Israel was held captive in Egypt 400+ years they were said to be in a furnace of fire. Was it a literal fire? Was Egypt a literal furnace?
What did Jesus mean by "devil and his angels"? Since Jesus is judging the nations as to how they treated Israel during their great tribulation of 3 1/2 years, this has to do with the nations. It says so in the text. Therefore I believe it should be "the adversary and his messengers." It has to do with adversarial nations and their treatment of Jesus' brethren. The messengers have to do with emissaries carrying messages to nations to enforce a pogrom against the brethren. These bad nations will go away into eonian chastening which will be like a fiery trial such as Israel had for 400+ years. That fire was prepared for the adversary [nation] and its messengers or emissaries.
I believe your translation is wanting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
But then why do most fundamentalists around here preach and teach to us that people who don't accept Jesus will burn for eternity in the fires of hell/lake of fire (same thing, basically).
It is because they don't understand the Scriptures. For instance, there isn't any verse in the Bible which states if you don't accept Jesus that you will burn for eternity in the fires of hell/lake of fire.
In the Great White Throne judgment they are judged according to their acts, not as to whether they had faith in Christ or not. Here is the passage:
Revelation 20:11-12 And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose
face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them." (12) And I perceived the dead, the
great and the small, standing before the throne. And the scrolls were opened. And another scroll was
opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in
accord with their acts."
Quote:
How can it be both? If Jesus said, "It's only for an age, not eternity" then why do the fundamentalists twist this around to try to make us believe he said it is forever without any hope of redemption?????
It is because they don't understand the adjectival form of "aionios" which is derived from the noun "aion." Some translators do understand, some don't. All aionios does is tells us concerning something pertaining to the eon or eons. If Christ wanted to use a term denoting unendingnes, He could easily have used the word "aperantos." When "aionios kolasin" (eonian chastening) is used of the nations who mistreated Christ's brethren in Matthew 25:31-46, it is speaking of chastening pertaining to that eon. That chastening is not the result of unbelief in Christ. It is for what they DID.
So based upon a proper understanding, judgment is remedial and temporal. In the end, all mankind will be saved based upon 1 Timothy 2:4-6; 4:10,11; Romans 5:18,19; 1 Corinthians 15:22-28; Colossians 1:20; Ephesians 1:10 etc.
As a thinking deist, this is one of several questions that pop into my mind that I cannot think of a logical answer to:
Jesus in his pre-incarnate form dictated the Old Testament to its writers. What Jesus inspired writers to write about hell was encapsulated in the doctrine on Sheol: Job wanted to be hid there; David made his bed there; Jonah prayed to God from there and was delivered; many others that indicated "hell" was a gloomy misty, nondescript place without fire or pain that both the good and the bad went to for not more than 12 years, I believe it was, and then they were released to heaven.
Jesus then incarnates and changes everything he said about hell in the Old Testament: that hell is a place of excruciating pain; that it is eternal; that only the wicked go there; that they keep company with the wicked angels who it was made for.
Why would Jesus say it is one thing in the Old Testament and then say it is something entirely different in the New Testament? Wouldn't Jesus have to keep some consistency in what he is saying from age to age? Or was it just a grave in the Old Testament and then it morphed into this horrible punishment for nonbelievers after his crucifixion?
here is a novel concept .... maybe you are deliberately confusing it, wantonly not understanding context and the dual nature of poetic OT.
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