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Oh well, in that case, we should just ask party on. Sky papa already made up his/her/it mind, so let's not worry, and have the best life here in earth. It's the only one that counts.
We all become worm food at some point.
Has god decided what we should bring to the party? I am thinking tuna casserole?
If God made a video, you still wouldn't believe Him, so what difference does it make?
We have what I consider good enough Old and New Testament documents. He preserved what He needed to to give people the right amount of truth to believe. It is His power to save, not ours. The evangel is God's power to those who are believing.
Originally Posted by Eusebius Hi thrill, I hope you have a nice day today.
God is not *currently* trying to save all mankind for life for the next two ages/eons. He has already chosen who will be saved before the disruption of the world (that's what the bible says). .......
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Originally Posted by cupper3
Oh well, in that case, we should just ask party on. Sky papa already made up his/her/it mind, so let's not worry, and have the best life here in earth. It's the only one that counts.
We all become worm food at some point.
Hi cupper, That is a good thought you bring up. However, I think mankind parties on anyway in spite of not knowing God is saving a select group of people for His corporation for the oncoming eons, don't you think?
But just because God is saving a select number of individuals, does not mean the rest of mankind can party on like there is no tomorrow. After all, Christ did die for all mankind. All mankind's sins were died for. All mankind eventually will be saved. However, Christ did not die to keep mankind from needful, loving correction. God will still judge mankind according to their acts. He disciplines the believer now so the believer not to be condemned with the world. So if the believer receives discipline for his/her actions, I think it is a fair bet that the rest of the world will as well.
Hi thrill, I hope you have a nice day today.
God is not *currently* trying to save all mankind for life for the next two ages/eons. He has already chosen who will be saved before the disruption of the world (that's what the bible says). That being said, He is the One Who opens up people's hearts and minds to heed the evangel as He did Lydia in Acts. The problem many Christians have is that they suppose God has given all mankind a free will to accept or reject the evangel and so it is all their fault if they go to what the Christians believe as "hell" and it is to the reward of those who make the right decision. So this, according to them, gets God off the hook of any responsibility for who goes to heaven or "hell." But that is not how it works. God does not operate by chance but by His choice and His will. He it is Who chooses.
I truly truly understand what you are saying above. Such theology surely gives God a black eye and turns Him into an ogre far far worse than the pagan gods.
No, what you have stated does make perfect sense and is logical. It is too bad that Christians can't look at their theology and say: "Man, that makes God look really bad!" When I was younger and going to other churches who taught eternal torment, that used to bug me to no end. I always thought "How can God do such a horrible thing?" I finally had enough and left those churches for good. But I still believed Christ died for me and clung with tenacity the verses in the Psalms "His mercy endureth forever!" A week after I left, God sent a dear person to me who told me about how God is going to save all mankind and actually used scripture to back it up. I have been with that understanding now since the '70's.
[b]
I agree for most of what you state above. But again, God has not failed us. He has already chosen who is to be in His corporation for the next two eons to be part of the administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ, both all in the heavens and all on the earth, in Him, in Whom our lost was cast ALSO. (see Ephesians 1:10). So in the future eons, the believers will have to roll up their sleeves and get to work with that administration. We won't be sitting on clouds playing harps.
At the comsummation of the eons all mankind will enter into salvation. This is all based upon what Christ has accomplished in His obedience to the cross (Romans 5:18,19; 1 Timothy 2:4-6; Philippians 2:8-11 etc.
Have a blessed day dear friend.
Okay, we'll leave it at this: you were good enough to give me some serious responses to some serious issues I and millions of others have had to face in the last few years instead of all the flying spaghetti nonsense, which I only brought up as an example--not as a statement of faith in such. I do meet you half way and say I'm glad you're a universalist and that you've rejected the doctrine of eternal torture. If Christian leaders could collectively get together and reject it as the Pope has been brave enough to do, and I admire him for that, then Christianity would be on its way to solving 75% of its dysfunction.
I don't understand the business of God choosing some now and then some later. That smacks of Calvinism except that those he rejects now will only suffer torment in fire for an extended period, maybe a few trillion years, which doesn't sound much better than eternity. A good God in my book would find a way to save us without all the torture, short-term, long-term or eternal.
As a deist, of course, I don't believe God is a bad God. That's why I was careful to say "From a Christian perspective". I acknowledge that He chooses not to answer prayer or get involved in human affairs and that is His choice and I respect that. What sets me off is Christians who try to cover for God by saying, "Well, God hasn't answered your prayers because you're not a good Christian and don't have enough faith." If only they'd admit the truth that God doesn't answer anybody's prayers---that anything good that happens after a prayer is just happenstance---it'd neutralize half my gripes with Christianity.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Hi cupper, That is a good thought you bring up. However, I think mankind parties on anyway in spite of not knowing God is saving a select group of people for His corporation for the oncoming eons, don't you think?
But just because God is saving a select number of individuals, does not mean the rest of mankind can party on like there is no tomorrow. After all, Christ did die for all mankind. All mankind's sins were died for. All mankind eventually will be saved. However, Christ did not die to keep mankind from needful, loving correction. God will still judge mankind according to their acts. He disciplines the believer now so the believer not to be condemned with the world. So if the believer receives discipline for his/her actions, I think it is a fair bet that the rest of the world will as well.
Or maybe, just maybe, we should just stop worrying about an afterlife, and concentrate on being the best person we can be here in our lifetime.
Perhaps then we would not see ask the religious based violence and wars, perhaps then we wouldn't abuse the only planet we have, and perhaps we would hold it and nature in more reference. After all, it is what sustains us, not the mythical entities of the various religions.
The problem with all this is that there are as many beliefs about how God saves mankind as there are Christians. That's a hell of a lot of differing views. So if the Bible speaks with a single voice yet there are such innumerable differing views then does anyone sense an extreme disconnect here? How can a person seeking the truth know who is right? It is analogous to going into a giant buffet and choosing your own individual meal--you put on your plate the food that looks the most delicious to you.
God has no right to judge anyone because He has never made His Will known to man in clear undeniable terms. Eusebius has one belief, Mike555 has another, Mystic has another, Hljc has yet another and katzpur has yet another. Each person chooses the salvation that best fits their beliefs about how God would and should be just in judging men. This gets us nowhere, but it DOES give us a right to stand before God at judgment day and say,
"God, it isn't fair of you to impose this punishment on me. I have always sought the truth and got nothing but white noise back. So if you're just and fair you will not send me to hell even temporarily, much less eternally. If you do, then I am fully justified in saying I was more merciful than You could ever be because I would never kick a person dumb enough not to be able to figure out what you wanted when you never revealed it to me."
If God is a just and merciful God He will acknowledge it is the truth: that it is NOT fair to impose a penalty on a person who wanted to know the way and never found it.
Okay, we'll leave it at this: you were good enough to give me some serious responses to some serious issues I and millions of others have had to face in the last few years instead of all the flying spaghetti nonsense, which I only brought up as an example--not as a statement of faith in such. I do meet you half way and say I'm glad you're a universalist and that you've rejected the doctrine of eternal torture. If Christian leaders could collectively get together and reject it as the Pope has been brave enough to do, and I admire him for that, then Christianity would be on its way to solving 75% of its dysfunction.
I don't understand the business of God choosing some now and then some later. That smacks of Calvinism except that those he rejects now will only suffer torment in fire for an extended period, maybe a few trillion years, which doesn't sound much better than eternity. A good God in my book would find a way to save us without all the torture, short-term, long-term or eternal.
Yes, I truly understand. If someone's god chooses some for life for the next two eons but chooses the rest of humanity to eternal conscious hell fire and damnation, why would anyone want to worship such a horrible god? I would be the first to spit in his face.
I do not believe anyone is tortured in fire. The lake of fire is called "death." It is an unconscious state of death for humanity. It could most likely be that the term "lake of fire" is a figure of speech which stands for the literal "death."
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As a deist, of course, I don't believe God is a bad God. That's why I was careful to say "From a Christian perspective". I acknowledge that He chooses not to answer prayer or get involved in human affairs and that is His choice and I respect that. What sets me off is Christians who try to cover for God by saying, "Well, God hasn't answered your prayers because you're not a good Christian and don't have enough faith." If only they'd admit the truth that God doesn't answer anybody's prayers---that anything good that happens after a prayer is just happenstance---it'd neutralize half my gripes with Christianity.
Yes, many have a lot of misinformed ideas concerning prayers. Even Christ's prayer that the cup pass by Him in the garden was not answered. So He said "Not my will be Thine be done!" fortunate for humanity God did not let the cup pass by Him or we would all be without hope.
I think prayers are to get us to align our wills with God's will. His will is already set. No amount of arm twisting by congregations of people making prayer circles etc. is going to get Him to change His immutable will. Besides, God doesn't like prayer circles. He's more into prayer squares. LOL.
If I were a Christians devoted to following Christ, Constantine kills me. Constantine made following God illegal, and Gentiles Christians were slaughtered and done away with by his word, and Martin Luther came and backed his word up, they made people like me sub human, took our lands, stole our children, forced conversion unto death, tortured beyond imagination and then Hitler used Martin Luther's words for his reign of Terror, and for what?
Because somebody believed in Jesus, kept his Passover and his feasts.
I can't think of any greater antichrist.
Actually the sources I quoted state that Constantine "legalized" all religions. His murderous ways were directed at "barbaric" Picts in Great Britain as a co-commander with his father, and at his primary rival, Maxentius, who sought to wrest sole control of Rome following Galerius' death.
I'm not saying I think he was a saint. I don't think ANY person is a saint. But his slaughter of people was politically and militarily motivated. He actually did the opposite with religion. He was able to blend the many religions into icons on his coins and built statues to both Christian and pagan gods.
I'm sure there were times he was a murdering *******. But he was a product of his times, too. And religion just wasn't one he wished to be the primary cause of unrest once he came to power.
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On 23 February 303 AD, Diocletian ordered the destruction of Nicomedia's new church, condemned its scriptures to the flames, and had its treasures seized. In the months that followed, churches and scriptures were destroyed, Christians were deprived of official ranks, and priests were imprisoned. It is unlikely that Constantine played any role in the persecution. In his later writings he would attempt to present himself as an opponent of Diocletian's "sanguinary edicts" against the "worshippers of God", but nothing indicates that he opposed it effectively at the time. Although no contemporary Christian challenged Constantine for his inaction during the persecutions, it remained a political liability throughout his life.
When one has a personal grudge against another--historical or not---it is easy to see them solely as a blackguard with no other redeeming qualities. I have neither a grudge nor hero worship toward Constantine. He was a man of his times who did what he felt best to maintain his power. Virtually all leaders everywhere do something similar though not always through bloodshed.
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