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The "path" they talk about does not have to go through Christ. According to their view, you can walk any path, and you always end up in the right place anyway.
True. As long as one's path is paved with good intentions.
That was Christ's message, lost amidst the bible babble.
Your life would be so much more stable if you just accepted that we have nothing to do with our salvation. Jesus did that. It is finished. That means Christ is in the mix, period, no matter what we do or do not do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
People need to believe in the gospel of Christ (death and physical resurrection) for their salvation.
My life is stable... one of the benefits of believing in Christ.
Believing is nice. The devils believe and they tremble. But to be a disciple of Christ is to follow His instructions to His disciples: Love God and each other every day and repent when you don't. That is the part that is missing in most of those who claim to follow Christ as they comfort themselves with the doctrine of unmerited grace. Are you one of them, DRob??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
The "path" they talk about does not have to go through Christ. According to their view, you can walk any path, and you always end up in the right place anyway.
You seem bent on continuing to lie about our views, Finn. Why is that???The path we talk about is to follow Christ's instructions to His disciples and to let the Spirit of agape love (Who IS God) guide our lives in love of God and each other. We trust that Christ DID what He said and we are saved. It is finished. Those who are vested in the dogma of the churches spend much of their time concerned about whether or not they are saved according to what the churches say they must do to be saved. There is no freedom in Christ in such ancient ignorance about God and Jesus.
You seem bent on continuing to lie about our views, Finn. Why is that???The path we talk about is to follow Christ's instructions to His disciples and to let the Spirit of agape love (Who IS God) guide our lives in love of God and each other. We trust that Christ DID what He said and we are saved. It is finished.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Those who are vested in the dogma of the churches spend much of their time concerned about whether or not they are saved according to what the churches say they must do to be saved. There is no freedom in Christ in such ancient ignorance about God and Jesus.
What a surprise, accuses while bent over doing the exact same
"ancient ignorance .... ancient ignorance .....ancient ignorance"
Whoa... whoa... as long as that path goes through Christ, then God will be found. They don't have to do things as I do... Christ just needs to be in the mix.
While my path is Jesus and I encourage others to do the same, it is NOT the path everyone has chosen. And those who have selected a different path are every bit as certain and confident as you that their path is the only path.
How I've changed my own view is that while I will always point to Jesus, I refuse to pass judgment on those who are committed to their own path.
I know what you know, but you haven't studied in depth the way I have---and frankly I haven't scratched the surface of Scriptural interpretation. You've grown up with "believe Jesus or go to hell," which was also my view until I began studying more carefully and deeply. There are BIBLICAL arguments for Mystic's universalism point of view just as there are for ours. And I have moved toward "belief" as secondary to obedience. It's a matter of seeing the gospels as individual messages not conflating them into one, and then seeing how the early believers shaped John in particular, to paint a very different Jesus than we see in the Synoptics.
As I stated in my previous post, understanding Scripture has nothing to do with simply reading it---that will get no one very close to the deep truths---it must be approached in the context of first and second century culture and how they understood both words AND images--some in Scripture carefully crafted to fit the existing beliefs of Jews and/or Roman Gentiles.
That verse about studying to show yourself "approved" to rightly divide the Word----it means those of us without seminary degrees are going to have to work much harder in approaching our biblical understanding. The more we learn the less certain our early views become---hence the less judgmental we can remain (assuming we have the open heart of Jesus).
What is both interesting and sad is that one of the most fearful things to tell a fundamentalist is that God not only loves everybody, He will forgive every one of them. The cross was meant to be a cruel, extended death of great horror. But in understanding it as propitiation (which I do) it converts Jesus' message with His life and words on the ultimate futility of violence, into a different meaning all together for humanity: violence saves.
That is troubling, and no reason for pride or certainty by anyone infused with the Spirit that He left us.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 04-21-2016 at 07:40 PM..
Reason: punctuation
What a surprise, accuses while bent over doing the exact same
"ancient ignorance .... ancient ignorance .....ancient ignorance"
Some things never change. It's funny how some people deny their views. If one believes in universal salvation, then my comment about all paths leading to the same destination must be true.
Believing is nice. The devils believe and they tremble. But to be a disciple of Christ is to follow His instructions to His disciples: Love God and each other every day and repent when you don't. That is the part that is missing in most of those who claim to follow Christ as they comfort themselves with the doctrine of unmerited grace. Are you one of them, DRob??
You seem bent on continuing to lie about our views, Finn. Why is that???The path we talk about is to follow Christ's instructions to His disciples and to let the Spirit of agape love (Who IS God) guide our lives in love of God and each other. We trust that Christ DID what He said and we are saved. It is finished. Those who are vested in the dogma of the churches spend much of their time concerned about whether or not they are saved according to what the churches say they must do to be saved. There is no freedom in Christ in such ancient ignorance about God and Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
[i]
What a surprise, accuses while bent over doing the exact same
"ancient ignorance .... ancient ignorance .....ancient ignorance"
What do you not understand about the need to follow Christ's instructions to His disciples, Twin??? Is it too difficult? Do you prefer the "easy believism" of unmerited grace with no demands on you????
What do you not understand about the need to follow Christ's instructions to His disciples, Twin??? Is it too difficult? Do you prefer the "easy believism" of unmerited grace with no demands on you????
"it is finished" is not "now go do your part".
Christ's instructions are simple:
“The work of God is this: tobelieve in the one he has sent.” ... period, nothing else added
For my Father’s will is that everyonewholookstotheSonandbelievesinhim shall have
eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” .... period, nothing else added
Conclusion: nothing else will make one a child of God
"to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—"
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
It would be best if you'd stop being the neanderthal you're accusing others of being.
"ancient ignorance .... ancient ignorance .....ancient ignorance"
Some things never change. It's funny how some people deny their views. If one believes in universal salvation, then my comment about all paths leading to the same destination must be true.
While my path is Jesus and I encourage others to do the same, it is NOT the path everyone has chosen. And those who have selected a different path are every bit as certain and confident as you that their path is the only path.
How I've changed my own view is that while I will always point to Jesus, I refuse to pass judgment on those who are committed to their own path.
Others believe that their path is certain. You don't have to pass judgment.
You should understand and communicate that Jesus is the only way to the Father as He said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
I know what you know, but you haven't studied in depth the way I have---and frankly I haven't scratched the surface of Scriptural interpretation. You've grown up with "believe Jesus or go to hell," which was also my view until I began studying more carefully and deeply. There are BIBLICAL arguments for Mystic's universalism point of view just as there are for ours. And I have moved toward "belief" as secondary to obedience. It's a matter of seeing the gospels as individual messages not conflating them into one, and then seeing how the early believers shaped John in particular, to paint a very different Jesus than we see in the Synoptics.
You have been studying worldly opinions, and it shows. I'm glad you admit that you have moved, because it shows as well.
Mystic does not believe in the physical resurrection of Christ and discounts Scriptures he does not like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
What is both interesting and sad is that one of the most fearful things to tell a fundamentalist is that God not only loves everybody, He will forgive every one of them. The cross was meant to be a cruel, extended death of great horror. But in understanding it as propitiation (which I do) it converts Jesus' message with His life and words on the ultimate futility of violence, into a different meaning all together for humanity: violence saves.
That is troubling, and no reason for pride or certainty by anyone infused with the Spirit that He left us.
The cross is representative of God's love for everyone... and representative that he has forgiven everyone. However, God's forgiveness and love does not, by itself, make a person sufficient to be saved - because we remain unchanged - dead to God. God forgives all and loves all - and He has provided all the opportunity to be born again through receiving the Holy Spirit through believing the gospel.
In other words, you can hear that you have won the lottery - but if you don't do what the lottery officials tell you to do to receive your winnings, you will remain unchanged.
If you believe what you heard, you will go to the place to validate your ticket and make arrangements for how you receive your money - and it's THEN that your life changes.
God's forgiveness and love has been announced to the world through His death and resurrection. Your instructions to receive the benefits are to believe the gospel. God then completes the transaction by sending us the Holy Spirit as a seal to our inheritance. But until anyone follows His instructions and believes the gospel - one's life remains unchanged.
"it is finished" is not "now go do your part".
Christ's instructions are simple:
“The work of God is this: tobelieve in the one he has sent.” ... period, nothing else added
For my Father’s will is that everyonewholookstotheSonandbelievesinhim shall have
eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” .... period, nothing else added
Conclusion: nothing else will make one a child of God
"to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—"
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
It would be best if you'd stop being the neanderthal you're accusing others of being.
"ancient ignorance .... ancient ignorance .....ancient ignorance"
So who is ultimately responsible for salvation? The person? Or the Christian God?
If the Christian God is responsible for creating belief, why doesn't he create belief in everyone, if he wants all to be saved?
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"ancient ignorance .... ancient ignorance .....ancient ignorance" 
