Bill Wiese (Leviticus, homosexuality, sexuality, Adam and Eve)
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IYour belief will be a stumbling block to those who want to know Christ, but realize, hey, I can still do the things I want to do, not realizing that one is a slave to the one whom they obey- slave to righteousness or slave to unrighteousness.
Not true, the only reason I still believe in God and pursue what Christ is about is because of the perspective I have now and I have no desire to live in a manner that is destructive simply because I believe that I am not under the threat of some demented fate.
In fact I only know of one person that tries to use the idea of there being no hell to excuse him from what he does, but he did it while he professed to believe in hell, so he is just a man who does bad things and doesn't want to face them.
Hi tdinh, I agree with legoman that you are not understanding whats being told to you. I and many other on the forum do not believe that everyone will be in "the Kingdom of God." as this is the time when Jesus will rule with his elect and "will bring all enemies under his feet" It is during this time that those not already chosen will under go "age-during chastisement" which will cause them to repent and have a true changing of the heart so that at the end they too will be in the image of God.
I think you give way too much credit to the idea of "free will". We don't have it. Every choice we make is caused by something and if it is a caused choice it is not free. Free will is something we think we have , it is something we want to have, and it seems like we have it but if you break it down and really think about it you will realize we don't have it. All choices come from the heart and we will always chose what the heart wants the most, always. So the way God changes us is not through fear of hell or torment, but by his grace( divine influence on the heart.) and love, to literally change the way we feel and what we want so in the end we become like our Father and are reborn into the family of God as true sons and daughters.
To think that God , who called the practice of Israel's sacrifice of her children in fire to a pagan god abominable, would sacrifice his own children in fire forever ,is to say God would do the abominable, which is blasphemous to the very nature of God. To believe that God would not fulfill all his want and desires and pleasure is also blasphemous to God. Trust this if nothing else God will save all his children, because to do less would make him a failure as a God and God can not fail.
Sschulz, I only understand what scriptures says. The problem in what you two are doing is your taking a few scriptures like:
1) 1 Corinthians 3: 12, If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
2) Phillipians 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
3) Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
4) Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire
You say the God's consuming fire and the lake of fire along with the fire described in 1Corinthians is God's refining fire, and those who go through this fire will eventually bow and confess and acknowledge God and be welcomed into His kingdom.
But you doctorine issues have to do with hell/hades/death. Do you not see from revelation that Hades/Abyss will be thrown into the lake of fire-the second death. No where in scripture does it relate to age during chastisement.
Are you serious when you say that I give God to much credit for free will? You claim God is soverign and that God is so loving that He is also soverign enough to bring everyone into His kingdom, but there is scripture, after scriputre, after scripture about - being born again, those will never inherit the Kingdom, unforgiveable sin that will never be forgiven in this age or your so called "age of chastisement" to come, the Bible's seperation of good and bad, righteous and unrighteous, wicked and good etc...
Let me show you a scripture on free will-
This is the Lord talking to Ezekiel 3:18-21
When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[b] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself. “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”
You see, a righteous person and unrighteous have a decisions- continue to follow good or follow evil or turn from evil or turn from good. It is no difference for us.
Again, you have it confused because when I tell people of Christ, I never come to them with fire and brimstone. I always come with love, service, teach scripture in proper context. I do not want anyone's blood on my hands, but I also want to see many people in heaven. God has a great plan for me, and it is unfolding. Many I know came to Christ because I talked of His goodness, but when the subject comes up, I tell of his rebuke and disciple, and do not fail to discuss hell if the subject comes up. I have most definitely told those who have fallen from grace, and went back to sin to turn from a particular area of sin, but I do it because alot of those I know are babe's in Christ. So I do it with a loving way, if one listens they listen, if not, then not. But I have done my duty under Christ.
Don't you realize that those who know the truth, and turn to wickedness will have it the worst and will be beaten with many blows. You claim that all will eventually turn to Christ, however, you negate the following scripture that tells of one turning their back on Him, in which Jesus' sacrifice can no longer atone for one's sin in this:
Hebrews 10:26, If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The doctorine that you teach or preach is dangerous, and this is why, ok:
1) God said to have no God's before Him, correct? You are saying that, no, you can have other god's and follow other religions, because He is so loving that in the "age of chastisement" one will be welcomed in. You negate the cross of Christ.
2) One can keep sinning deliberately after receinving the knowledge of truth, correct? You negate Christ's sacrifce on the cross and say, well it is not that dreadful because during the "age of chastisement" one will be welcomed in. You negate His sacrice on the cross.
3) The Bible's separation of good and bad, righteous and unrighteous, believers and unbelievers, the lost and found etc... The Bible teaches of two groups and one's destiny, eternal, will be. However, during your so called "age of chastisement" there will be no separation and these warnings don't matter now, because all will be refined and welcomed into His kingdom.
4) The Bible tells of Hell/Hades and the Abyss, and you claim that that is His refinement, correct? Revelation says that Hell/Hades will be thrown in the lake of fire. Is the lake of fire a second chastisement? Did not you claim the lake of fire was God, the consuming fire? But doesn't Revelation say that the Lake of Fire is the second death? Where in the Bible is God described as the second death? It doesn't.
So what your telling me is that God is sovereign enough to bring all into His kingdom, but He is not sovereign enough to give one free will to choose to sin or not? The BIble tells of God being sovereign enough to let those who chose to love Him to love Him, and those who don't, don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz
Hi tdinh, I agree with legoman that you are not understanding whats being told to you. I and many other on the forum do not believe that everyone will be in "the Kingdom of God." as this is the time when Jesus will rule with his elect and "will bring all enemies under his feet" It is during this time that those not already chosen will under go "age-during chastisement" which will cause them to repent and have a true changing of the heart so that at the end they too will be in the image of God.
I think you give way too much credit to the idea of "free will". We don't have it. Every choice we make is caused by something and if it is a caused choice it is not free. Free will is something we think we have , it is something we want to have, and it seems like we have it but if you break it down and really think about it you will realize we don't have it. All choices come from the heart and we will always chose what the heart wants the most, always. So the way God changes us is not through fear of hell or torment, but by his grace( divine influence on the heart.) and love, to literally change the way we feel and what we want so in the end we become like our Father and are reborn into the family of God as true sons and daughters.
To think that God , who called the practice of Israel's sacrifice of her children in fire to a pagan god abominable, would sacrifice his own children in fire forever ,is to say God would do the abominable, which is blasphemous to the very nature of God. To believe that God would not fulfill all his want and desires and pleasure is also blasphemous to God. Trust this if nothing else God will save all his children, because to do less would make him a failure as a God and God can not fail.
Legoman, I still do not fully comphrend your doctorine. Let me ask you this, ok-
1) you state: In that sense I fully believe not everyone will enter the Kingdom of Heaven - not everyone will reign with Christ.
Then where will those reign then if not everyone will reign with Christ? If not Heaven then where?
2) I stated:
Also When Jesus says Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven".........he is actually lyeing because everyone will come to repentance not this age, but the age to come, right?
And you commented: Nope, not what I said at all.
Tell me then, what does Jesus mean? Tell me in depth so I understand your doctorine.
3) I stated: Mark 3:29
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin." ....is actually not true and will be forgiven and eternal only means the next age, but eternal doesnt mean everlasting, right?
You commented: The word is aionios, the proper translation is eonian - meaning pertaining or relating to age/ages. It could also mean continuing through ages.
Could it also mean through the ages that never stop, but keep going? If you claim eventually in one of the ages they will be forgiven, then what? Where will they be?
I stated:
Quote: Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."... is not true because you can't blaspheme the HOly Spirit and if you do, you will not be forgiven in this age but the next age, right?
You commented: Nope didn't say that either.
What are you saying then if not the next age, an eventual age that God determines?
I state:
Quote: Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." .....again, I am confused, so if it's not this age or the age to come, is it the age to come after that, 3rd age? I am confused.
Your comment: There are multiple ages to come in the future (Eph 2:7 shows that, for example).
So when Ephesians states 2:7 “in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.”
Your claiming that not the next age where this age is destroyed, but an eventual age, right?
I stated:: John 3:3
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are bornagain." Which mean that when GOd makes you bow down, not this age but the age to come, even though one loves evil and not good, He will mysteriously give them His Holy Spirit, right? Or, you really don't need to become born again, because yours sins are forgiven and He will overlook one who is unrepentant. Let's pretend He didn't say this, or wait, it's a symbol, so let's throw it out like the book of Revelation.
You state the following: Do you not know it is the kindness of God that leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4)
God will pour out His spirit on all people (Joel 2:28).
I never said I throw out the book of Revelations. I said it is filled with symbols, which you agreed with. So just as the lamb is Jesus, and the bride is His church, so the lake of fire and the beast are symbols of something. Fire is symbolically used throughout the bible as a refiner and purging agent - the scriptures and even God Himself is represented symbolically as fire.
Yes, I know God’s kindness leads one to repentance, ONLY IF SOMEONE IS WILLING TO REPENT!
Yes, God will pour out His spirit on all people, ONLY IF SOMEONE IS WILLING TO REPENT AND TURN TO HIM!
Again, if the Bible tells us Jesus is the Lamb and groom, people who know Christ are His bride, then it is easy to see that the Dragon is the Anti-Christ, Satan. The beast and false prophet on the dragons head, which are two horns are governments that are of the devil are his cohorts. Would you like me to show you how and where it is explained? You don’t throw out the baby
I also state:
Oh, and the book of life. It's actually just a pamphlet in the greek and hebrew translation, it means pamplet and blot means put back in the pamplet, or is the book of life a symbol and we can't understand it...hmmm, help please.
You comment: I didn't say any of this. Pamphlet? What are you talking about? But if you want to understand, consider that Saul of Tarsus is not in the book of life, but Paul is.
Again, God changed Saul’s name to Paul and was once dead, like me, and is alive now and in the Book of Life. What is your point? I am talking about the Book of life and what you thought it was, and what blot means.
You state: I never said it was "cute" or "not so bad". Do you think God's judgments are "easy" if they don't involve eternal torment? I don't.
Then tell me, in the next coming ages, where will the lost, unbelievers, damned, condemned, unrighteous, wicked be in the next age or age to come, what is happening during God’s chastisement, and what will happen after, where will they be?
I state:
Help me understand, the Bible doesn't make any sense from what your telling me.
Your comment: Do you really want to understand or are you just trying to prove yourself right and 'win the debate'? Are you teachable or are your unteachable?
I am willing to be taught, but not of a false doctrine. My question was absolutely sarcastic because of your twisted scriptural references.
So let me ask you this, are you saying that a God that allows one to choose wickedness over good, to turn from righteousness to wickedness, to be filled with His Spirit and turn to hate and anger, to reject His work on the cross; would be unjust, unholy, unforgiving, a tyrant, wicked and hateful if one’s eternal, meaning ages that never cease to be in the Lake of Fire-the second death, meaning a place of torment, would be evil?
Please, would like all to answer the above.
You state the following:
What doesn't make sense is that you present all these verses that you think means God will let people suffer forever in eternal torment. Yet you have no explanation for all the verses that show God will save all men. I have presented the explanations for your so-called "eternal torment" verses.
You have yet to explain these verses that say:
God will have all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4)
My answer: No, your taking it out of context as I already explained, He desires and wants, not forces and pushes or prods for one to be saved.
God is reconciling all things to Himself through Christ (Col 1:20) My answer: again, reconciling those who know Him to reconcile Himself to Him. Let’s take col. 1:20 to the next verse to take it “into context.” Col. 1:21-23
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Those who know Christ now, were once alienated and enemies, but yes, God reconciled them to Himself from earth to heaven.
Everyone will swear allegiance to God (Isa 45:23)
My anwer: yeah, and your point, He is God. The good will voluntarily bow a knee, God will make those wicked bow to Him. Both destiny’s are forever.
You get my point. Again, if you take them in proper context and not take out a verse and cut it off from the rest, you say what is truth, could be a lie. Take it in proper context with verses before and after it, chapters before and after it, or books before and after it if you want your doctorine to hold water. If you want me to, I can, no problem. But my doctorine is of truth, your’s holds no water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Your mocking below might suggest you don't want to learn or understand what I believe and are simply trying to prove yourself right.
Let me be clear. The phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" is talking about the reign of the heavens - ie. reigning with Christ.
In that sense I fully believe not everyone will enter the Kingdom of Heaven - not everyone will reign with Christ.
Nope, not what I said at all.
The word is aionios, the proper translation is eonian - meaning pertaining or relating to age/ages. It could also mean continuing through ages.
Nope didn't say that either.
There are multiple ages to come in the future (Eph 2:7 shows that, for example).
Do you not know it is the kindness of God that leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4)
God will pour out His spirit on all people (Joel 2:28).
I never said I throw out the book of Revelations. I said it is filled with symbols, which you agreed with. So just as the lamb is Jesus, and the bride is His church, so the lake of fire and the beast are symbols of something. Fire is symbolically used throughout the bible as a refiner and purging agent - the scriptures and even God Himself is represented symbolically as fire.
I didn't say God would overlook anything. Stop with the misrepresentation please.
I didn't say any of this. Pamphlet? What are you talking about? But if you want to understand, consider that Saul of Tarsus is not in the book of life, but Paul is.
WOW. Ok I never suggested anything like this either. You mock God's righteous judgment. Do you realize God's judgments are for the purpose of teaching righteousness (Isa 26:9 for example)? That is what judgment does - it sets things right and teaches what is right and wrong.
Yes they will gnash their teeth. So what? It happens everyday... these verses say nothing about eternal torment.
Do you realize who He is talking about here? Who is a 'servant'?
I never said it was "cute" or "not so bad". Do you think God's judgments are "easy" if they don't involve eternal torment? I don't.
Do you really want to understand or are you just trying to prove yourself right and 'win the debate'? Are you teachable or are your unteachable?
What doesn't make sense is that you present all these verses that you think means God will let people suffer forever in eternal torment. Yet you have no explanation for all the verses that show God will save all men. I have presented the explanations for your so-called "eternal torment" verses.
You have yet to explain these verses that say:
God will have all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4)
God is reconciling all things to Himself through Christ (Col 1:20)
Everyone will swear allegiance to God (Isa 45:23)
All will turn back to Him (Psalm 22:27)
Everyone will praise and worship Him joyfully (Rev 5:14, Phil 2:9-11).
All men will see His salvation (Luke 3:6).
God is LOVE - Love does not fail, Love always protects, Love keeps no record of wrongs.
In Adam all died, so in Christ all will be made alive (1 Cor 15:20-28).
All men will be made righteous through Christ (Romans 5:18-19).
All people will be blessed through the seed of Abraham (Gen 28:14).
The good news will bring great joy to all people (Luke 2:10)
etc.
The doctorine that you teach or preach is dangerous, and this is why, ok:
1) God said to have no God's before Him, correct? You are saying that, no, you can have other god's and follow other religions, because He is so loving that in the "age of chastisement" one will be welcomed in. You negate the cross of Christ.
2) One can keep sinning deliberately after receinving the knowledge of truth, correct? You negate Christ's sacrifce on the cross and say, well it is not that dreadful because during the "age of chastisement" one will be welcomed in. You negate His sacrice on the cross.
3) The Bible's separation of good and bad, righteous and unrighteous, believers and unbelievers, the lost and found etc... The Bible teaches of two groups and one's destiny, eternal, will be. However, during your so called "age of chastisement" there will be no separation and these warnings don't matter now, because all will be refined and welcomed into His kingdom.
4) The Bible tells of Hell/Hades and the Abyss, and you claim that that is His refinement, correct? Revelation says that Hell/Hades will be thrown in the lake of fire. Is the lake of fire a second chastisement? Did not you claim the lake of fire was God, the consuming fire? But doesn't Revelation say that the Lake of Fire is the second death? Where in the Bible is God described as the second death? It doesn't.
So what your telling me is that God is sovereign enough to bring all into His kingdom, but He is not sovereign enough to give one free will to choose to sin or not? The BIble tells of God being sovereign enough to let those who chose to love Him to love Him, and those who don't, don't.
1. I never said it was ok to have false gods. God will judge those that do and by his judgments they will repent and have a change of their heart. The chastisement will be severe and not a walk in the park but yes they all will repent. The cross of Christ is completely necessary for without it no one will be saved with it all will be saved.
2. Here are the verse that address that question.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
If we continue sinning after we received the truth their will be a severe judgment and fiery indignation. Because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God. Those are true words and it will not be pretty for those that do sin willfully after receiving the knowledge but in the end they too will repent after God is through with them.
3. Of course the is a division of the righteous and unrighteous. The unrighteous will not be in the Kingdom of God, which is ruled by Jesus. The unrighteous will be throw into the lake of fire( this is a metaphor) where they will undergo the second death( death of their carnal spirit )
4. I never said that hell was where chastisement took place. There is no place called Hell that is the "unseen". The unseen will also go into the lake of fire this is the second death. Side note if the lake of fire is the second death and it is eternal what about where it says Jesus shall do away with death. If the second death is eternal Jesus can never do away with it and turn all over the the Father who will be all in all.
God is sovereign and that means all he want and desires will come true. We are the clay and clay does not have free will it becomes what the potter wishes it to be. To believe that our puny will will overcome God's will is blasphemous and undermine God's power.
Under your doctorine, one not only does not have to accept Christ on earth, they do not have to read their BIble, worship other gods and religions and lived wicked. His judgment and the cross would be a joke. When you say God's judgement are severe, in your belief, what does that look like? What exactly is God's refining fire going to look like?
Where does it say in the Bible if one rejects Christ's salvation that He will have a severe, fiery indignation against them? Where does it state if we reject Him, then He will accept Him?
So because God is a consuming fire, that means the Lake of FIre is a metaphor, how is that? Where does it say that when one is casted in the Lake of FIre their carnal spirit will be refined?
God will do away with death (#4) and throw it in the Lake of Fire, that is how He is doing away with it, not eliminatling it, putting hell/death wicked, devil etc... there.
That's great your twisting scripture in Romans 9:
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
Pharaoh had a free will like us. Look in the Old Testament, and how many signs God did through Moses, for God bore great patience in Him, but Pharoah refused to let His people go. So, God decided He will harden His heart and use him as an object of wrath.
No different than us. IF we love wickedness rather than truth, love evil instead of good, God will hand us over to it.
Here in Romans 1:28-
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Where in the Bible does it say that God's soverignty that everyone who loves or hates, believes in other gods, or reject Christ say "come on in" I love you.
You fail to address free will in man, where God tells Ezekiel the following:This is the Lord talking to Ezekiel 3:18-21
When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[b] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself. “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”
You see, a righteous person and unrighteous have a decisions- continue to follow good or follow evil or turn from evil or turn from good. It is no difference for us. You don't see free will in that? You don't see one can make a decions, by oneself, to go right or left? Where is free will not taken into account?
You fail to address the Book of Life also, by the way.
tdinh; how ya doing? sorry it took so long to get back to you ,been busy.
You quote scripture where God said that he raised pharaoh up for the very purpose that He(God) could show his power and then you say but pharaoh had free will. Can't have it both ways. If God raised him up for that purpose than pharaoh had no say in the matter. If pharaoh exercised his "free will" and did not do what God purposed him for then God is mistaken and that can not be. So pharaoh did not have free will ,he was the "clay" just like we all are.
Later you say God through Moses showed great patience and when pharaoh would not comply he decided to use him an object of wrath. Don't you see God hardened his heart because pharaoh was weak and would have let them go before it was time. God was showing his power to the Israelis. Pharaoh had no control over what God was doing and when it became time he then let them go.
You can not surprise GOD. He knows every choice you are going to make before you make it. If he knows all your choices already you can not choose different or God will be wrong, he will have "missed the mark"(sinned) and God can not sin.
I know it kinda make your head spin doesn't it. Me too, till I prayed and thought and finally God opened my eyes and I realized that if we have "free will" God can't know our choices before we make them. But he does so the choices had to be to only one we could have made by the circumstance that brought us to that choice and the condition of our heart , both of which are in God's control.
This is the part that really tests your understanding. The choices we make are our choices. They are what we really want deep in our hearts. We choose whether we are righteous or unrighteous. We do choose to follow Jesus or not. We choose to come on this forum or not, every choice we make is ours. But they are to only ones we could have made because God has a plan and we are all part of that plan and His plan will work out perfectly and neither you or I can change one little part of it. The circumstance that lead us to the choices we make are all controlled by God. Remember out very faith comes from Him and it is His faith not ours. It talk in the Bible of predestination of some people. Do you think we have free will but they did not? Or maybe we have "limited free will" by definition that is not free will.
The concept of "free will" is one one the biggest idols of the heart you will ever have to overcome. But it comes down to one simple thing, WE ARE THE CLAY HE IS THE POTTER. Clay does not have free will.
Hi, Sshulz, I am doing well. Busy over Christmas/New Year, but in a good way.
So, back on free will and Pharaoh. You claim that God can't use someone for His purpose and free will? Why not? If you claim that God is soverign, which I also do, then why can’t He bear with patience those objects of wrath, as scripture states, He prepared for destruction? Why can’t He give one a decision to obey Him, and if one, as Pharaoh did not, use him as an instrument for His purpose?
Why do you think God can overcome one’s will and save them as you claim. What about the blatant devil worshipers who do not want to have anything to do with God, that have their own false bible that does everything that the Bible states is good to glorify the enemy. Do you honestly think God will welcome one into His kingdom that is so blatant against Him and His ways to save one who does not want to be and fights against His purposes.
You have seen me post many times the following scriptures of those who will not enter His kingdom, remember?-
1 Corinthians 6:10- Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Now I have posted these three verses to show you a few things, ok. I put in bold sexually immoral and liars, along with that is what some you were, and I will explain why. You can see that all three scriptures show those who will not inherit God’s kingdom and the sexually immoral is amongst a few traits that will not be welcomed in, along with liars.
Now we both can agree that the devil is a liar and a father of lies, correct? Here is a scripture of that: John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Let’s also look at the scripture of the sheep and goats again, ok, because both the goats and the devil have the same fate-
The Sheep and the Goats
Matthew 25:31-
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left… “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels… “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
So we can conceive that, amongst other traits, the sexually immoral and the liars will not inherit the kingdom of God, correct? We can see from scripture that the devil is a liar and father of lies, who as scripture states, will never inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, why? Because he is a liar and father of lies. In the above scriptures the father of lies, satan, along with the demons that follow him will have the same fate as the goats, or vice versa, who will not be in God’s kingdom. You also see that I put in bold "And that is what some of you were," too. Scripture does not say that is what some of you are, or some of you that are going to be, it says that is what some of you were, ok. That means those who live unrepentant, not born from above, who continue to live like that will not inherit His kingdom. It also does not say that is what some of you are going to be, it is present tense. Does that make sense?
I also put in bold eternal punishment and eternal life. We can conceive that punishment is horrid especially because Jesus had said it, but life is good because Jesus said it. So regardless of the view about eternal, whether you think it is age this or age to age or whatever, we can conclude that it will be equal eternal, whether it be unto punishment or unto life. What I do not understand is why there is a double standard when one, as yourself is more than happy to conclude that eternal life is good and everlasting, but eternal punishment is maybe not necessarily good, but will not be everlasting even though there is equal punishment and equal life- eternal.
My conclusion is that the devil is a liar and as scripture states all liars will not inherit the kingdom of God. I can conclude that, amonst other traits, the sexually immoral, which is in all three of those scritpures, along with liars, who are in the same boat as the goats and devil will not be inheriting God’s kingdom. That being said, how can you conclude otherwise?
And you never really addressed this: Under your doctorine, one not only does not have to accept Christ on earth, they do not have to read their BIble, worship other gods and religions and lived wicked. His judgment and the cross would be a joke. When you say God's judgement are severe, in your belief, what does that look like? What exactly is God's refining fire going to look like?
Where does it say in the Bible if one rejects Christ's salvation that He will have a severe, fiery indignation against them? Where does it state if we reject Him, then He will accept Him?
So because God is a consuming fire, that means the Lake of FIre is a metaphor, how is that? Where does it say that when one is casted in the Lake of FIre their carnal spirit will be refined?
You also to fail to address this: ou fail to address free will in man, where God tells Ezekiel the following:This is the Lord talking to Ezekiel 3:18-21
When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[b] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself. “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”
You see, a righteous person and unrighteous have a decisions- continue to follow good or follow evil or turn from evil or turn from good. It is no difference for us. You don't see free will in that? You don't see one can make a decions, by oneself, to go right or left? Where is free will not taken into account?
You fail to address the Book of Life also, by the way.
If you claim we have no free will, then your telling me that God will’s a man to sin, is that right? For God hate’s sin and there is no evil in Him.
Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
My conclusion is that the devil is a liar and as scripture states all liars will not inherit the kingdom of God. I can conclude that, amonst other traits, the sexually immoral, which is in all three of those scritpures, along with liars, who are in the same boat as the goats and devil will not be inheriting God’s kingdom. That being said, how can you conclude otherwise?.
Tdinh, I'd really like to know what you think the major sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were? I'd also like to know what you think "witchcraft" is?
Last edited by herefornow; 01-03-2011 at 01:59 PM..
As far as witchcraft, you asked, and you shall now receive via bible.com-
Witchcraft involves the manipulation of the demonic host, through incantations and the casting of spells. Witchcraft can also involve communication with demonic spirits impersonating the dead. The Bible clearly teaches that the dead cannot communicate with the living as there is a great chasm separating the dead from the living (Luke 16:26). As discarnate spirit entities these demons possess knowledge regarding the activities of humans and have a limited to ability to foretell the future.
The Old and New Testaments treat witchcraft as an evil, rebellious, and loathsome practice. Those who practiced it were not tolerated. “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,” (Exodus 22:18).
Moses cautioned the children of Israel: “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable way of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God.The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so” (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).
With respect to the evil kind Manasseh who reigned in Jerusalem fifty five years the Bible states: “He did evil in the eyes of the Lord, followed the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites” (2 Chronicles 33:2).“He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, provoking him to anger” (2 Chronicles 33:6).
When Samuel reproved King Saul, he compared rebellion to the sin of divination and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Witchcraft includes both divination and idolatry. “For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you as king” (1 Samuel 23). If Saul was rejected by God for rebellion and arrogance so will a modern day person who practices or permits himself or herself to be entertained by witchcraft and idolatry.
The Living Bible clearly addresses the fate of those who delve or as C. S. Lewis labeled “lust” for the occult: “The Lord has rejected you because you welcome foreigners from the East who practice magic and communicate with evil spirits” (Isaiah 2:6). “Crawl into the caves in the rocks and hide in terror from his glorious majesty, for the day is coming when your proud looks will be brought low; the Lord alone will be exalted. On that day the Lord of Hosts will move against the proud and haughty and bring them to dust… All the glory of mankind will bow low; the pride of men will like in the dust, and the Lord alone will be exalted. And all idols will be utterly abolished and destroyed” (Isaiah 2:10-18).
Paul in Galatians 5:19-21 ascribes witchcraft as a deed of the flesh. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” It is interesting to note that Paul’s warning is to the churches of Galatia whose members are already Christians. They are warned that by engaging in sinful conduct they would not inherit the kingdom of God. The warning is to those who have accepted Christ.
Take a lesson from the sorcerers and witches who came to a saving knowledge of Christ in Acts 19:19, “And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of all; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.” All occult objects should be destroyed as these items are vehicles or “windows” for occult activity and oppression. They are literally magnets, which draw the demonic host.
Hope that answers your questions. Anyhow, why do you ask? As Galatians teaches, those who practice witchcraft, also will not inherit God's kingdom.
Haven't talk to you in a bit on here, how would you like to answer reply #368?
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow
Tdinh, I'd really like to know what you think the major sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were? I'd also like to know what you think "witchcraft" means?
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