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Nowhere do we read that the LOF is described like this:
"Men will weep and gnash their teeth forever and i will never love them anymore,but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity. I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."
Correct as it is symbolic, there is no "furnace".
In scripoture fire represents two things.
1. Destruction with no resurrection
2. Refining
The way we know the difference is context. Being tossed into the furnace or lake of fire, is not a refining.
As to suffering eternally in Hell? Nope Revelation tells us that all in it get out and that includes faithful men as well. Job actually asked to be hid there until the resurrection. Adam did not suffer nor was refined. He ceased to exist. He came from dust and no Adam existed before that and he returned to dust and no longer exists. The dead:
KJV Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
James 5:20
consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.
You begin as one who has been taken from the water in the dolphin skins, you were born son of Adam, son of Eve, and son of the most beautiful creature who was a covering.
You are taken from the water but the next layer is a ram skin died red because you have to die to being that son, and then you have to become a virgin betrothed to Christ and you are a black Palestinian she goat, and the bride of Christ is black, the beloved of Solomon and Moses is black and their blackness is a prize because they work in gardens not their own.
After the black Samarian she goat comes the wedding garment, it is a fine work of woven linen that the bride makes herself because you have to make your own covering lest you try and rest and the bed be too short and the covering not big enough.
People say,'' AH, But Jesus is our covering and he covers sin,'' yes, Jesus does cover sin and the sin of the whole world is put on his head but you must also make a covering yourself or you will be kicked out of the higher kingdom, you will be found naked with your salvation and everyone will see your nakedness.
The word,'' Awake,'' is a very big subject with very interesting concepts.
How blessed are the people who know the joyful sound of the shofar, the awakening blast. Yom Teruah, the day of the sounding the trumpets in the house of trumpets.
Awake, sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you" Ephesians 5:14{Rosh Hashanah}
Ephesians 4:30, being sealed unto the day of redemption refers to Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. God gave this festival to teach us that we will be judged on Rosh HaShanah and will be sealed unto the closing of the gates on Yom Kippur
Isaiah 26:19 the resurrection. The word awake is associated with the resurrection, as it is written, "Your dead will live; their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, for your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits"
The shout begins a thousand year reign, an wakening but we are to remain awake
SHOUT/Awaken
First Thessalonians 4:16
6For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Romans 13 11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Isaiah 27 13And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
Awake, you sleepers, from your sleep! Rouse yourselves, you slumberers, out of your slumber! Examine your deeds, and turn to G-d in repentance. Remember your Creator, you who are caught up in the daily round, losing sight of eternal truth; you are wasting your years in vain pursuits that neither profit nor save. Look closely at yourselves; improve your ways and your deeds. Abandon your evil ways, your unworthy schemes, every one of you! (Yad Hichot Teshuva 3.4).
Anyone knows that you had better be awake and aware on the day of trumpets, the last trump on Rosh Hashanah, the term,'' awakening,'' was always associated with Rosh Hashanah.
Then perhaps that is essence of the disagreement. Change requires free will and bad habits destroy free will.
Yes God can intervene, even to liberate our free will enough for us to make a choice. But He does require a choice and it is because the choice is a requirement for change to happen. You seem to want there to be a get out jail (escape the consequences of your choices) free card, and want God to ignore choices and keep making us choose again until we get it right. Once a choice is made that road/possibility is closed -- otherwise choices are meaningless. "Groundhog day" (the movie) is a nice fantasy, but life isn't like that - in fact, it is an antithesis to life, where nothing we do matters any more. It is no life at all.
Bad habits atrophy free will, yes, destroy? no. Why would God not allow unlimited choice if there is a possibility of change? Once a choice is made, that road/possibility is closed until you realize that you goofed. You can't go back to that point, but you CAN choose to make a difference from the point where you realized it. Groundhog Day IS impossible due to Joyce's "ineluctable modality of a voyage and return in space with a voyage and return in time" (if I got that right) but that does not mean that a choice can't be reviewed.
Free will is quite fragile. It depends on a lot of things like awareness. And when you refuse to be aware, then you no longer even see the choices which you might have made. Bad habits certainly do destroy free will. It is, in fact, what makes them bad. Shall I give a simple example? Bad study habits like leaving it all to the last minute is an example which comes easily to my mind. Why is this such a bad habit? Because it takes away your choices from you. And if you make this habit something which all your life is organized around then it becomes hard to change. This is one of the easy, ones of course. Other habits, like habits of thought (not to mention ones that are physically addictive) are much harder to change.
There is nothing absolute, universal, inviolable about free will either. It varies greatly from one living thing to another, from person to person, and even from one time to another. Things can come along and take it away from us and it happens all the time with drugs and illness -- it is a demonstrable fact. So you are wrong, there is absolutely no guarantee of free will anywhere in life.
The justice isn't in having free will or not but that we are only accountable for what free will choices we do make, AND this has nothing to do with God but comes from the simple fact that it is these free will choices which make us who we are -- our true self, our spirit comes from these free will choices alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
Why would God not allow unlimited choice if there is a possibility of change?
That argument would have some merit IF it was about God allowing anything. But it does not. God is not the limiting factor in our free will -- WE ARE! That you say this demonstrates that your thinking is still mired in designer god theology. But this doesn't agree with the objective evidence. Our existence is not a product of design. I certainly believe that God can contribute, influence, and teach. However except for the laws of nature themselves there is not design because such a things is contrary to the essence of life itself. We are self-organizing. We make the choices of what to become and that includes how aware and free we are in our choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
Once a choice is made, that road/possibility is closed until you realize that you goofed. You can't go back to that point, but you CAN choose to make a difference from the point where you realized it. ...
That is true only as long as it isn't choices about what to be aware of. But these are exactly the kind of choices we are talking about. We are not talking about choice regarding our favorite ice cream or music. These are choices between life and death -- about the very things that make us alive like awareness. When we choose death, when we choose to close our mind to possibilities, then the realization you are talking about doesn't happen anymore. What surprises me is that you cannot see just how often people close their mind and refuse to be aware of things.
Can people who have closed off their mind change to open them again? Yes, but only when something outside forces itself into their awareness. That is the very purpose of physical life. It is why we have all these laws of physics by which forces can come along and break our body or snuff out our life. We need this time during which the ability to realize our dreams are limited by an external reality. That limitation protects us from ourselves and gives us a chance to learn. But physical life comes to an end and then the rule of the external laws of nature is gone and what we have chosen is all that is left because that is what the spirit is.
Last edited by mitchellmckain; 08-07-2016 at 10:43 PM..
A biblical case can be made for both, plus annihilation, depending on one's frame of reference. It largely comes down to what one believes is true about the nature of God. And since the bible is all over the map and often in total contradiction in its descriptions of God, one will naturally gravitate toward the description with which they most resonate.
That's the "fun" thing about the bible... It goes a long way toward showing you the state of your own heart and mind.
Mind you, our Lord is talking about those who will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. However you try to puzzle that in your head any differently than being forever seperated from God, it means eternal seperation from God.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Your logic is extremely unsound. I have a university education in the subject.
The word "forever" is no part of Mt.7:21.
Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.
Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God
and it will be empty forever?
The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.
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