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That is actually a good question, our transgression is indeed against an infinite and Holy God, and as finite creatures the infinite punishment deserved is therefore unpayable to us. If any of us would try to pay for even our own sin, we would indeed be eternally in hell, yet still unable to make atonement for even one single transgression.
But Jesus Christ was not only human, He was also God, infinite and Holy. Jesus Christ was the only Person that could both represent us humans because He took on our nature yet was without sin, and also bear the eternal punishment for our sin because He Himself is eternal. In those three hours on the cross, the Infinite and Holy Son of God took on Himself the eternal punishment of our sins, and satisfied the Fathers wrath over our iniquity. And the fact that His Sacrifice was accepted by the Father was confirmed in His ressurection from the dead, having defeated death, which is the punishment for our sins.
This reeks of apologetic cultist nonsense. It is clear the biblical God is the creator of imperfect humans, evil, Satan and hell, which makes him solely responsible for all that offends him. Then, through ridiculous apologetics, you place blame on the imperfect humans.
Aside from this is this nonsense of blood atonement and eternal torment, that to the rationale mind, makes no sense at all when considering justness.
Christ said we were unable to LOVE God if we could not / did not love our neighbor.
Yes we should love, not just our neighbour and friends, but even love our enemies and the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. So that is not what I was talking about, what I meanth is that for a proper understanding of eternal punishment and Gods justice, we need to understand Who it is we have sinned against.
It's important not to think God is the same as a human being, the God we sin against daily is infinitely above us, infinitely Holy and Good, Righteous and Pure. He is the only reason we are alive, and yet it is Him our hearts are set against in rebellion. Do you see how that increases the badness and vileness of our sin with infinite proportions?
The fact is, people try to paint God black as a tyrant and evil guy, because He punishes evil with eternal damnation after this life if we don't repent and trust in Jesus Christ. So that way people feel more "justified" remaining in their sin and unbelief. But what they do not see is that God is actually Good, Holy, Love, Pure, Righteous and yet Merciful, He sent Jesus Christ to save us, and He gives us time to turn back to Him and be saved.
So if you think God is a tyrant, sin doesn't seem that big of a deal.. just like killing adolf hitler would've seemed like a good thing to do. But if you can see God as He truly is, then you can see how terrible our sin really is.. and how we simply deserve the punishment that is eternally due for it. It's purely grace, undeserved favour, that God made a way for us to be forgiven. It's bad enough when we repay evil with evil, but worse if we repay good with evil.. and that is what we do every day towards the God that created us. We repay His goodness and mercy with evil, first and foremost in rejecting His Son Jesus Christ.
As an Atheist, it makes more sense to me that there is no God. Especially, the biblical God. This is not to say there is no universal force indifferent to its inhabitants.
I defend both theism and atheism as rational alternatives. It is a choice we make for subjective reasons.
I believe in the God of the Bible. But this is only possible because of evolution which punches a whole through both the philosophical problem of suffering and the criticisms of the OT portrayal of God.
I am a theist and neither pan(en)theist or Deist. This means I believe in a God which is at least person (which is more than a person actually -- "transpersonal") and which plays a part in the events of our lives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55
You either accept the bible as real(of God)or not. You seem undecided.
I am not undecided. What you are sensing is the fact that I was not raised Christian but rather brought up on a steady diet of criticism for the irrational darker side of Christianity. I still consider that criticism valid. I have just learned to see value in Christianity in spite of it.
You need to be careful of the fundie habit of seeing the world in black and white, us and them terms -- that I am decidedly opposed to. I believe the Bible is the word of God, but not inerrant, infallible or self-interpreting.
The point is, you can't value God like you value people.
Yet God is infinitely more good than any human, He is loving, merciful, righteous etc. and He is the very reason we even exist, our Creator, which only increases the heinousness of our sin against Him. Do you understand? And mind you that God isn't "another person", He is infinitely above us. That is why the severity of the punishment is Righteous because of the Good and loving God that created us, it is committed against.
God is only better if He does NOT share your elitist corruption of justice and morality. If anything His idea of justice and morality is the complete opposite. From Matthew 20:26-28 and Matthew 23:11 we see that God's idea of greatness is to be a servant and even a slave to others and thus valuing others even more than yourself.
So NO, the point is that God does not value Himself more highly than people. On contrary, He equates the way we treat other people with how he sees us as treating Him. This is made crystal clear in Matthew 25:31-46.
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31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Jesus IS that law, you don't know the law, you simply do not know Jesus. People know of Jesus through a Passover lamb on Pesach but many reject the Pesach and everything it teaches. Jesus was the unleavened bread, the firstfruits or many firstfruits, he was the Shavuot and will be the Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and the feast of Tabernacles and Shemini Atzereth.
All these days and their traditions teach of Jesus and this is how you know Jesus because you are the Temple and you either know yourself or you do not, and if you do not know the Temple, how then could you know the spirit inside that Temple?
Those law breakers were not just breaking the law, they were disrespecting the law.
Anyone who doesn't keep the law and teaches others not to keep the laws will be the least in the kingdom of heaven.....These are not my words and if you find something to contradict Jesus, go ahead.
The NT clearly teaches--Law will be written on hearts in LOVE. Because if one has the Love Jesus spoke of--They wouldn't even consider-- stealing from their brothers, coveting his things, murdering him, wanting anothers mate, etc,etc,etc. Few possess that Love. This is todays world-2Timothy 3--it is not a pleasant picture--a serious lack of love is causing it.
I defend both theism and atheism as rational alternatives. It is a choice we make for subjective reasons.
I believe in the God of the Bible. But this is only possible because of evolution which punches a whole through both the philosophical problem of suffering and the criticisms of the OT portrayal of God.
I am a theist and neither pan(en)theist or Deist. This means I believe in a God which is at least person (which is more than a person actually -- "transpersonal") and which plays a part in the events of our lives.
I am not undecided. What you are sensing is the fact that I was not raised Christian but rather brought up on a steady diet of criticism for the irrational darker side of Christianity. I still consider that criticism valid. I have just learned to see value in Christianity in spite of it.
You need to be careful of the fundie habit of seeing the world in black and white, us and them terms -- that I am decidedly opposed to. I believe the Bible is the word of God, but not inerrant, infallible or self-interpreting.
Are you saying that God is evolving from a blood thirsty barbarian to a snow white supreme being?
The NT clearly teaches--Law will be written on hearts in LOVE. Because if one has the Love Jesus spoke of--They wouldn't even consider-- stealing from their brothers, coveting his things, murdering him, wanting anothers mate, etc,etc,etc. Few possess that Love. This is todays world-2Timothy 3--it is not a pleasant picture--a serious lack of love is causing it.
Nothing wrong with simple salvation, there is a very broad way and even the haters of the law are saved in the court.
I am talking about just knowing the law.
Sit down and write out the law of Jesus for me.
Sure, it is simple, love your neighbor and put the needs of others before your needs and you will be blessed.
This doesn't mean you know somebody.
You sit down and consider every single law. You write down the law and then write down the true meaning of each law and only by doing this can you know the true laws of Jesus.
For it is written in the law of Moses: Then tell the true meaning
For it is written in the law of Moses: Then tell the true meaning
For it is written in the law of Moses: Then tell the true meaning
This law concerning oxen is a wealth of teaching to a person trying to know Christ but unless you already know the law in your heart, how can the spirit quicken the truth to you?
Each law is a part of the laws of Jesus and although they may not be written down for somebody to peruse, they do exist.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 08-11-2016 at 02:28 PM..
Are you saying that God is evolving from a blood thirsty barbarian to a snow white supreme being?
No. The point is that evolution demonstrates that suffering and death is a necessity for the development of life. Therefore I can also believe that what God does in the OT is necessary.
Nothing wrong with simple salvation, there is a very broad way and even the haters of the law are saved in the court.
I am talking about just knowing the law.
Sit down and write out the law of Jesus for me.
Sure, it is simple, love your neighbor and put the needs of others before your needs and you will be blessed.
This doesn't mean you know somebody.
You sit down and consider every single law. You write down the law and then write down the true meaning of each law and only by doing this can you know the true laws of Jesus.
For it is written in the law of Moses: Then tell the true meaning
For it is written in the law of Moses: Then tell the true meaning
For it is written in the law of Moses: Then tell the true meaning
This law concerning oxen is a wealth of teaching to a person trying to know Christ but unless you already know the law in your heart, how can the spirit quicken the truth to you?
Each law is a part of the laws of Jesus and although they may not be written down for somebody to peruse, they do exist.
Love or law do absolutely no good to those serving a false god. Every one has Love in them, Even Hitler loved his family and friends--that love is not enough, it is not the love Jesus spoke of.
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