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Mt.7:21-23...Jesus says to the wicked "depart from Me".
Matthew 7 does not say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity. I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."
Actually Jesus remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.
"Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to ECT it's next to nothing.
I'd suggest much the same could be said for every passage that ECTers refer to.
How to reconcile UR and ET passages? Jesus said the Spirit of truth will lead you into all truth.
Listen to Him and you will know that you know that you know.
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
Ok... let's see what Jesus does say about evildoers elsewhere.
Matthew 13:
Quote:
41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42 and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.
Oops... It looks like Jesus pretty much said what you think He didn't say after all. Notice that he doesn't say...
and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will cease to exist and feel no more pain, sorrow, or regret because they have been spiritually euthanized by God.
Mt.7:21-23...Jesus says to the wicked "depart from Me".
Matthew 7 does not say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity. I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."
Actually Jesus remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.
"Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to ECT it's next to nothing.
I'd suggest much the same could be said for every passage that ECTers refer to.
How to reconcile UR and ET passages? Jesus said the Spirit of truth will lead you into all truth.
Listen to Him and you will know that you know that you know.
Comments? Most appreciated. Thank you.
The Spirit of Truth takes from what belongs to the son and declares it.
Have you listened to him? What belongs to the son?
"The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will instruct you in everything and remind you of all that I told you."
"The Lord redeems the lives of His servants, no one who takes refuge in Him incurs guilt."
Ok... let's see what Jesus does say about evildoers elsewhere.
Matthew 13:
Oops... It looks like Jesus pretty much said what you think He didn't say after all. Notice that he doesn't say...
and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will cease to exist and feel no more pain, sorrow, or regret because they have been spiritually euthanized by God.
Mt:13:41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42 and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.
Sir, where did i ever say men will "cease to exist"? I didn't.
Re Mt.13:41 yes, men will "weep and gnash their teeth".
My comments re Mt 7 are similarly applicable to Mt.13.
Matthew 13 does not say "Men will weep and gnash their teeth forever and i will never love them anymore,but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity. I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."
Actually Jesus remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.
"Weep & gnash teeth". Big deal! Compared to ECT it's next to nothing.
I'd suggest much the same could be said for every passage that ECTers refer to.
How to reconcile UR and ET passages? Jesus said the Spirit of truth will lead you into all truth.
Listen to Him and you will know that you know that you know.
Comments? Most appreciated. Thank you.
Romans 5:18...Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Cor. 15:22...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Phil. 2:9-11...Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] nder the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The Lake (haven) of fire, where others will not be able to torment you; a place of safety.
Now, what exactly is going to take place?
There are many opinions on that, sir.
Nowhere do we read that the LOF is described like this:
"Men will weep and gnash their teeth forever and i will never love them anymore,but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity. I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."
The Lake (haven) of fire, where others will not be able to torment you; a place of safety.
Now, what exactly is going to take place?
By its own nature the spirit is safe from all external dangers. Unlike physical things the spirit is what it is by its own nature alone and thus there is no system of laws by which it can be hurt by things outside itself. The only problem is, there is danger within. The one thing the spirit is not safe from is itself. Or to be more specific, the spirit is not safe from its own sin. The self-destructive habits of sin bring pain, death, corruption and destruction to the spirit eroding its free will and everything good within it.
The lake of fire is the law of sin and desire which like the law of gravity brings everything down eventually. And how shall we escape this inevitability? "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Last edited by mitchellmckain; 08-07-2016 at 12:57 AM..
Sir, where did i ever say men will "cease to exist"? I didn't.
Universalist rather than Annihilationist then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA
"Weep & gnash teeth". Big deal! Compared to ECT it's next to nothing.
I'd suggest much the same could be said for every passage that ECTers refer to.
How to reconcile UR and ET passages? Jesus said the Spirit of truth will lead you into all truth.
Listen to Him and you will know that you know that you know.
Comments? Most appreciated. Thank you.
ECT, UR, and ET??? There is a research puzzle for me to figure out.
No. Internet searches are not shedding any light on this. Is this your own personal code?
Let me try guessing...
ECT = Eternal Conscious Torment?
ET = Eternal Torment?
UR = Universal Restoration?
If this is what you mean, I have no problem with ECT and ET passages. "Universal Restoration" is not in the Bible anywhere. There are passages about the restoration of the Earth to God: Psalm 22:27, Psalm 145, Isa. 26:6-8, Isa. 45:22-23, Isa. 66:23, Mal. 1:11, but that is all I see.
However on ECT... I think consciousness is a highly relative and quantitative thing which is part of life. Thus, since this is NOT eternal life, I see only a decrease of awareness in hell not an increase or even a maintaining of it. So while I think the spirit is technically eternal in its existence, you can argue that what I believe is not that far from annihilationism, in the sense I believe the spirits in hell destroy themselves and thus eventually cease to be anything we would recognize or value as a person. But since this is something they do to themselves this is not the same as being euthanized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA
Romans 5:18...Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Cor. 15:22...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Phil. 2:9-11...Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] nder the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
These are words of Paul taken out of context. Paul does NOT teach universal salvation. Unlimited atonement? yes. Jesus died so that all MIGHT live. But universal restoration? No.
Romans 2:
Quote:
5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Paul speaks of eternal life for some and not for others, just as Jesus said many times like in Matt 25:31-46.
1 Corinthians 6:
Quote:
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Philippians 3:
Quote:
18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is the belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.
Thus all three passages you point out are right alongside other passages in the same letters which speak of those who end in destruction, without eternal life, who will thus not partake in the kingdom of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA
P.S. You're from SLC & a Mormon?
Nope. I am not any part of the Restorationism-Adventist branch from mainstream Christianity. I am a Trinitarian liberal evangelical open theist with a position on atonement and original sin more like the Eastern Orthodox. But I am well familiar with teachings of both Mormon and JW Moderator cut: edit groups.
Last edited by mensaguy; 08-15-2016 at 05:02 AM..
Reason: denomination bashing
Mt.7:21-23...Jesus says to the wicked "depart from Me".
Matthew 7 does not say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity. I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."
Actually Jesus remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.
"Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to ECT it's next to nothing.
I'd suggest much the same could be said for every passage that ECTers refer to.
How to reconcile UR and ET passages? Jesus said the Spirit of truth will lead you into all truth.
Listen to Him and you will know that you know that you know.
Comments? Most appreciated. Thank you.
My scriptural 2 cents:
Aren't we fortunate that supposedly ONLY Jesus gets to decide who is truly EVIL DOERS....so why worry?
See there is no mercy from God for the devil and demons and fallen angels , and then men and women who have passed on with no protected souls , says from Revelation 20:10 ..That the devil , the beast, and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire , and will be tormented , they will not die there ``........as it is not strong enough to make them die .............. but in Revelations 20 :14 ``death and hell were caste into the lake of fire , this is the second death`` , were it does not say people will be tormented there but it says it is a second death , so hopefully this second death will eliminate the spirits of men and women who had no power at all like the devil had
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