Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Whether Jesus was crucified on a cross or a stake, He was crucified on our behalf, bearing our sins in His own body, paying the penalty for those sins as our substitute.
Just being a bit technical here, but if it wasn't a cross, then it wasn't a crucifixion, right?
Jewelry makers will have to revise their designs.
Hi,
The word crucifixion is not in the Bible. Even the base word for crucifix (Crux) means stake. The idea of a 2 part "Cross" came into being later, which is why the 2nd century writers began to refer to both. Note they speak of both, showing the reality that the word stake is also accurate.
It isn't what it is, it is the worship/veneration given to it and ... the command to flee from idolatry not get as close as you can to it, or "cross" the line into idolatry.
For what it's worth, several early writings show that Romans used both stakes and crosses to crucify criminals, with some writings indicating that Jesus was crucified on a cross rather than a stake.
1.) Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165) in writing how the Passover lamb is sacrificed as a symbol of the suffering of Christ states that the lamb is dressed up in the form of the cross which Jesus would undergo, with one spit being vertical and the other one horizontal across the back.
CHAPTER XL -- HE RETURNS TO THE MOSAIC LAWS, AND PROVES THAT THEY WERE FIGURES OF THE THINGS WHICH PERTAIN TO CHRIST.
God does not permit the lamb of the passover to be sacrificed in any other place than where His name was named; knowing that the days will come, after the suffering of Christ, when even the place in Jerusalem shall be given over to your enemies, and all the offerings, in short, shall cease; and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb.
Concerning Justin Martyr's claim that the Paschal lamb was offered in the form of a cross, refer to the following article. - The Crucifixion of the Paschal Lamb
2.) Irenaeus (c. A.D. 120/140 - c. A.D. 200-203) in speaking of the number five and that it does not agree with the arguments of the Gnostics describes the cross as having five extremities which at least doesn't describe a stake.
Against Heresies 2.24.4
Chapter XXIV.-Folly of the Arguments Derived by the Heretics from Numbers, Letters, and Syllables.
The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities, two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails.
4.) Marcus Minucius Felix (died c. A.D.250) indicates that Jesus was crucified on a cross. He writes that the sign of the cross can be seen in a ship carried along by its sails. The Mast is the vertical pole on which the sail is raised, and the Boom is the horizontal pole. On an ancient Roman sailing ship it looks like a cross.
The Octavius of Minucius Felix.
CHAP. XXIX.--ARGUMENT: NOR IS IT MORE TRUE THAT A MAN FASTENED TO A CROSS ON ACCOUNT OF HIS CRIMES IS WORSHIPPED BY CHRISTIANS, FOR THEY BELIEVE NOT ONLY THAT HE WAS INNOCENT, BUT WITH REASON THAT HE WAS GOD. BUT, ON THE OTHER HAND, THE HEATHENS INVOKE THE DIVINE POWERS OF KINGS RAISED INTO GODS BY THEMSELVES; THEY PRAY TO IMAGES, AND BESEECH THEIR GENII.
"These, and such as these infamous things, we are not at liberty even to hear; it is even disgraceful with any more words to defend ourselves from such charges. For you pretend that those things are done by chaste and modest persons, which we should not believe to be done at all, unless you proved that they were true concerning yourselves. For in that you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross, you wander far from the neighbourhood of the truth, in thinking either that a criminal deserved, or that an earthly being was able, to be believed God. Miserable indeed is that man whose whole hope is dependent on mortal man, for all his help is put an end to with the extinction of the man. The Egyptians certainly choose out a man for themselves whom they may worship; him alone they propitiate; him they consult about all things; to him they slaughter victims; and he who to others is a god, to himself is certainly a man whether he will or no, for he does not deceive his own consciousness, if he deceives that of others. "Moreover, a false flattery disgracefully caresses princes and kings, not as great and chosen men, as is just, but as gods; whereas honour is more truly rendered to an illustrious man, and love is more pleasantly given to a very good man. Thus they invoke their deity, they supplicate their images, they implore their Genius, that is, their demon; and it is safer to swear falsely by the genius of Jupiter than by that of a king. Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners; and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses glided and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it. We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with handsoutstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it.
5.) In the Acts of Peter (C. A.D. 150-200 ), Jesus is said to have been crucified on a cross.
The Acts of Peter Chapter XXXVIII
For it is right to mount upon the cross of Christ, who is the word stretched out, the one and only, of whom the spirit saith: For what else is Christ, but the word, the sound of God? So that the word is the upright beam whereon I am crucified. And the sound is that which crosseth it, the nature of man. And the nail which holdeth the cross-tree unto the upright in the midst thereof is the conversion and repentance of man.
Whether Jesus was crucified on a cross or a stake, He was crucified on our behalf, bearing our sins in His own body, paying the penalty for those sins as our substitute.
You are correct it does not mater which, though the quotes show both are possible and the general use of "Cross" in the "Church" came into being in the 2nd century long after he died.
The problem is the Bible gives no direction to the level of attention given to the Cross that we have seen for centuries. This level of veneration was introduced to accommodate pagans who were used to having an idol of some nature and ignores the command to Flee from Idolatry, not get as close as you can. The fact many "love" it has nothing to do with what God Directs as obedience to such directions shows love of God. There is an example in scripture where a symbol approved by God was later given a similar level of veneration and it brought God's wrath on those doing so. A lesson there.
The word crucifixion is not in the Bible. Even the base word for crucifix (Crux) means stake. The idea of a 2 part "Cross" came into being later, which is why the 2nd century writers began to refer to both. Note they speak of both, showing the reality that the word stake is also accurate.
It isn't what it is, it is the worship/veneration given to it and ... the command to flee from idolatry not get as close as you can to it, or "cross" the line into idolatry.
I'm not, nor ever have been, JW, but I will say that I have never venerated literal crosses, primarily because I've noticed that those that do for the most part, still see Him there. He's not, He is risen.
Being ashamed of a literal cross (what some say if you don't venerate it), and being ashamed of the WORK of the cross, is two different things, I might add. What He went through is unspeakable, unimaginable, and in no way should be diminished. Peace
The word crucifixion is not in the Bible. Even the base word for crucifix (Crux) means stake. The idea of a 2 part "Cross" came into being later, which is why the 2nd century writers began to refer to both. Note they speak of both, showing the reality that the word stake is also accurate.
It isn't what it is, it is the worship/veneration given to it and ... the command to flee from idolatry not get as close as you can to it, or "cross" the line into idolatry.
Neither is HOMOSEXUAL or ABORTION, yet it is enough for the evangelical church (Kingdom Halls included) to berate and attack others who support our neighbors.
Does the Kingdom Hall use the term HOMOSEXUALITY to tear down others??
Does the Kingdom Hall use the term ABORTION when calling women derogatory names?
I do not think the word ALGEBRA, AUTOMOBILE, ROCKET SHIP (though John said something about LOCUSTS when writing on his drunken stupor that many evangelicals are more than thrilled to call helicopter) is in the bible either--last I looked the bible was NOT an all inclusive lexicon of the ENGLISH language.
Come to think of it KINGDOM HALL is not in the bible either..
I'm not, nor ever have been, JW, but I will say that I have never venerated literal crosses, primarily because I've noticed that those that do for the most part, still see Him there. He's not, He is risen.
Being ashamed of a literal cross (what some say if you don't venerate it), and being ashamed of the WORK of the cross, is two different things, I might add. What He went through is unspeakable, unimaginable, and in no way should be diminished. Peace
Yes, what he did is what we should be focused on. He died for us. The work of the cross if you will and far more important than what he died on. Plus as you noted, he is risen and ruling as King.
Neither is HOMOSEXUAL or ABORTION, yet it is enough for the evangelical church (Kingdom Halls included) to berate and attack others who support our neighbors.
Does the Kingdom Hall use the term HOMOSEXUALITY to tear down others??
Some in churches may sue derogatory names. The Kingdom Halls do not. They speak of the actions as wrong but never speak badly of the individuals. Note the article here.
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY? Which of these statements would you consider to be true? 3.The Bible promotes homophobia (a hatred of or prejudice toward homosexuals).
3. FALSE.Although the Bible condemns homosexual acts,it does not encourage prejudice, hate crimes, or any other kind of mistreatment of homosexuals.—Romans12:18.[1]
They don't sit around and talk about homosexuality or abortion. It's just one of those things that are assumed to be wrong so no further discussion is needed. Most of what I remember was them talking about how bad the world was getting. Except one of the governing body members gave a talk about homosexuals designing tight pants so they could see other men's private parts. It earned him the nickname Tight Pants Tony and a few online write ups about him. I guess it was so bad it woke a few people up and they left the organization. He gave that talk in Italy and got a few laughs out of the brothers and sisters there. He looked angry that they weren't going along with it. I can't remember exPat, was that the one where he called God his big brother? He also doesn't like spanx for some reason.
Some in churches may sue derogatory names. The Kingdom Halls do not. They speak of the actions as wrong but never speak badly of the individuals. Note the article here.
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY? Which of these statements would you consider to be true? 3.The Bible promotes homophobia (a hatred of or prejudice toward homosexuals).
3. FALSE.Although the Bible condemns homosexual acts,it does not encourage prejudice, hate crimes, or any other kind of mistreatment of homosexuals.—Romans12:18.[1]
Lots of words are not in the Bible.
BUT The word "homosexual" is NOT in the bile...and we are not really sure what the original translation of the word or "act" really was now do we??
And why is that? OH because here are NO ORIGINAL writings...DUH...
But the god of the OT did ENCOURAGE and ORDER the killing of others who were not considered part of Israel...
As doe discrimination and PREJUSDICE, the OT god started that in GENESIS 4:15 with Cain--
But the LORD said to him, "Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.
From that day forth, CAIN was a target of discrimination because he was "different."
No, there should be no idol for a cross or anything else. The thought is: Accept one error and you then open yourself to accept all errors.
There is no word for crucifix in the Bible translations, doesn't that mean anything to you?
It is not that the cross is not a stake or a tree it is the fact that the cross has pagan influences, and can be seen in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. It is presented in the form of the sign for fertility, and does not fit in with the Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus. Using a simple thing like the cross of pagan influence is just another attempt of Satan's to denigrate Jehovah and his faithful Son.
Do you want to know the truth or just little bits of it to make a good story?
Did you ever hear about straining at gnats? Your concern is at that level if you swallow the camel that what we should be concerned over is what we believe about Jesus and God rather than living in that love that He taught.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
