Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So the question is always asked: "Why did God create sin?"
"He didn't," you reply. "Sin is a result of man having free will."
Okay, so the whole 'tree in the garden' setup was because God wanted Adam and Eve to freely choose Him and they chose... poorly. Bummer for us.
But then we are told about the end of days, where God will 'destroy' sin and death and all the righteous will live in a New Earth which will have no tears, sadness or sin.
So how can God set up a world in the future where there's no sin and presumably free will but He couldn't just set that up in the first place?
I feel like there's a logical contradiction here and I would like to hear some opinions on this from other Christians.
You are correct when you state that there are logical contradictions, but they are all false assumptions on your part. If you wish to rewrite history or the Biblical record to suit your own bias and agenda then do so, but don't cry to God or anybody else when you fall into error of your own design.
The Eden story is misrepresented by the religious community as well as the secular one, each for their own reasons. Bear in mind that God created Adam and Eve AND the garden for good purpose. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate HE had any other goal in mind.
One good gift that God intended to give to Adam and Eve was a way for them to show love - real love - to God. But how does one love God? You can't mail a Hallmark greeting card to heaven on Father's Day. Nobody knows the address and air mail wouldn't deliver it anyway. You can't write a check and send it to God for the same reason. What bank account does God use? None actually. You can't even give God a hug. Ok so how do you show real love to God? He has told us how. God considers trust and obedience to be ultimate acts of human love toward Him. It's not the same as a roll in the hay with men and women and it's not the same as scratching a puppy behind the ear. Then again God isn't a creature. His desires and attitudes are completely alien to us - so He has to explain it to us personally.
He tried to tell Adam and Eve how to express their love for HIM. The acceptable form of the expression of love isn't to write a check, it's to obey and trust. Sin arose when Adam and Eve refused even that simple request. They went so far as to reject God's kindness and wishes in favor of their own desires and attitudes. Consequently, as they rejected God - God in turn rejected them. There is nothing worse in the life of man or God than unrequited love. It is devastating and may last a life time. In the case of Adam Eve and God it did.
Therein began the Biblical story of God's work upon the earth to redeem man from sin and self-centered love and tendency toward self-destruction. The Bible is the story of redemption, nothing more and nothing less and that story is six thousand years old and counting. It isn't a book about dinosaurs or a time table for creation. It's about redemption - pure and simple. Nothing else.
Man permanently lost his autonomous ability to make decisions about his relationship with God or other men in the Garden of Eden. It was lost forever and will NEVER be restored. What God did do was to recreate the species with the ability to show Him and by extension each other - love.
This recreation is in association with the Holy Spirit and is called the Second Birth. It is the creation of a new type of creature - one that has a permanent link with God.
In the new earth, those who have accepted the second birth will live with God. The rest will suffer the second death. It isn't fair, but it is just.
So the question is always asked: "Why did God create sin?"
"He didn't," you reply. "Sin is a result of man having free will."
Okay, so the whole 'tree in the garden' setup was because God wanted Adam and Eve to freely choose Him and they chose... poorly. Bummer for us.
But then we are told about the end of days, where God will 'destroy' sin and death and all the righteous will live in a New Earth which will have no tears, sadness or sin.
So how can God set up a world in the future where there's no sin and presumably free will but He couldn't just set that up in the first place?
I feel like there's a logical contradiction here and I would like to hear some opinions on this from other Christians..... JJ_Max
To set the stage for my response.
JJ.....the key to understanding of your inquiry is found in the following verse: Gen_1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
"In the image of" represents Adam as a god. Lower case g because Adam is not God but was created in the image of God.... a reflection of what God is. (God is...... above all....all things good, perfect and without any flaws).
Therefore, Adam, as a god, (Is flawed in the making) becomes a separate entity from God. That separation is detachment/death because of Adams becoming a separate entity of its own will.
Quote:
"Why did God create sin?"
He created the potential for Adams ability to sin but not sin itself.
Quote:
Okay, so the whole 'tree in the garden' setup was because God wanted Adam and Eve to freely choose Him and they chose... poorly. Bummer for us.
The story of the garden is a story a child can relate to...for simple understanding. Eating of a real fruit of any tree does not make one wise. For a child....well...that is a start for understanding.
But as one grows older one begins to experience knowledge of both good and evil as one ingests the reality of life.
God did not create a flawed vessel, but in the process of its creation the vessel became flawed. Flawed due to its independent state as its own god qualities. The story of the master Potter.Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Follow up Romans 9:21
Quote:
But then we are told about the end of days, where God will 'destroy' sin and death and all the righteous will live in a New Earth which will have no tears, sadness or sin.
The end of days happened already. Think about that for a moment........ before continuing reading.
What had to happen before God could redeem His own creation? He had to eliminate both death and hell right?
So He did at Mount Calvary with Jesus on the cross. Those were "the end of days" of the old world and the beginnings of a new world. This time the new world has no end.
Read: Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Jesus wouldn't have the keys to hell and death if hell and death did not follow Him to the cross right?
Rev_6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.......
The pale horse's rider represents death and Jesus rode that horse because He became death for all of us in order to eradicate it for us.
S
Quote:
o how can God set up a world in the future where there's no sin and presumably free will but He couldn't just set that up in the first place?
JJ.....He did set up a new world at His Resurrection.The world is not a physical world but a spiritual world after we vacate this one. The new spiritual world starts right now at our recognition of it.
Infancy is of this world. Maturity of spirit is the next.
My view and opinion on this matter only.
Hope it stimulates a wonder of Gods great love.......towards us.
So the question is always asked: "Why did God create sin?"
"He didn't," you reply. "Sin is a result of man having free will."
Okay, so the whole 'tree in the garden' setup was because God wanted Adam and Eve to freely choose Him and they chose... poorly. Bummer for us.
But then we are told about the end of days, where God will 'destroy' sin and death and all the righteous will live in a New Earth which will have no tears, sadness or sin.
So how can God set up a world in the future where there's no sin and presumably free will but He couldn't just set that up in the first place?
I feel like there's a logical contradiction here and I would like to hear some opinions on this from other Christians.
Actually God did set up a world with no sin and with free will. However, as scriptures explain Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and be independent of his sovereignty influenced by Satan's lies. Some believe because God created everything he therefore created wickedness or an opposing force called Satan. Some also believe that Satan wasn't the one who deceived Eve. However, Jesus reminds us that Satan was not created as Satan but became Satan and was the father of the lie-John 8:44. Compare what the apostle Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:14. Eve was deceived (lied to), the first lie, and who was the first deceiver (liar) according to Jesus? Thus one can honestly say God created the being who became Satan but did not create Satan as Satan. Satan was the one who misled Eve while Adam chose to follow along (the start of sin). Otherwise God would directly and indirectly be responsible for all the injustice and wickedness that has occurred since. That would contradict what Moses wrote about God. He wrote that God's works are perfect, that all his ways are justice, a faithful God who does no wrong...Deuteronomy 32:4.
Satan never challenges God's power because Satan knows God can destroy him. Instead he challenges God's right to rule. God has given man and Satan time to prove creation can do without God's sovereignty. Once that issue is settled we can then look forward to a future where there will be no wickedness but free will remains. Satan's influence would be gone unlike what we experience today...(see 1 John 5:19) and people will be perfect (unlike today). However, if some should choose to rebel, God would no longer feel obligated to allow such an individual or individuals to prove they can be independent. The issue would already be settled and God could take immediate action against that individual or individuals before any damage occurs.
God DID set up a perfect world in that Garden....sinless and perfect with the chance to live forever for Adam and Eve if they remained totally dedicated to the Lord. But they were in bodies of flesh and eventually fell to the wiles of the devil. Our education began there outside the Garden where it sunk in that going against Gods commands carried a heavy penalty. Adam and Eve started out Spiritually alive to the Lord, but lost it when the Lord said they would surely die the day they sinned.......they died Spiritually but not physically til 900+ years later. We start out in the same deadness, but can come to life through Jesus and the restoration of the spirit lost in that Garden.
The Bible is a progressive revelation......starts out simply with one rule in the garden and progresses through the law which was good but could save no one. All are born spiritually dead in the sin of Adam and accumulated a huge sin debt. Jesus always knew He would have to pay the price we couldn't and to remove the cause of death (sin) so He could give us eternal life. He confused everybody when He turned from the law of Moses and went to give the message of grace to Paul and the Gentiles. The Jews were in disbelief at this, and most of the world has missed it til this very day.
Those saved by grace with the indwelling Holy Spirit today will be united with a glorified body just like Jesus displayed at the end of His earthly ministry......it will have no blood but be powered eternally by the Spirit and will finally be sinless and Holy without temptation from the flesh. It is our ultimate hope of glory coming up.......all in Gods plan before He put the earth and everything in it together........
Unfortunately for man in his pride HE wants to WORK for salvation on his own, boasting in his own goodness. All who fall into these endless "good works" that are hay and stubble in Gods sight will simply remain separated from Him in spiritual deadness. Narrow is the gate that leads to salvation and few there be that find it.
People are simply incredulous at the idea of being given Gods greatest gift for FREE through simple faith in the gospel of grace HE gave to Paul. You just accept it by FAITH, no works, no tithing, no water baptism, no trying to be sinless when it is impossible in a body of flesh. Simply understand that Jesus died for your sins, was dead and buried and rose to new life on the third day according to the scripture. SIMPLE. Believe it by faith and spend eternity with HIM, only Jesus could have come up with this wonderful plan, only He could pay the price demanded and take away the sins of the world. He came to set us free.......
You are correct when you state that there are logical contradictions, but they are all false assumptions on your part. If you wish to rewrite history or the Biblical record to suit your own bias and agenda then do so, but don't cry to God or anybody else when you fall into error of your own design.
The Eden story is misrepresented by the religious community as well as the secular one, each for their own reasons. Bear in mind that God created Adam and Eve AND the garden for good purpose. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate HE had any other goal in mind.
One good gift that God intended to give to Adam and Eve was a way for them to show love - real love - to God. But how does one love God? You can't mail a Hallmark greeting card to heaven on Father's Day. Nobody knows the address and air mail wouldn't deliver it anyway. You can't write a check and send it to God for the same reason. What bank account does God use? None actually. You can't even give God a hug. Ok so how do you show real love to God? He has told us how. God considers trust and obedience to be ultimate acts of human love toward Him. It's not the same as a roll in the hay with men and women and it's not the same as scratching a puppy behind the ear. Then again God isn't a creature. His desires and attitudes are completely alien to us - so He has to explain it to us personally.
He tried to tell Adam and Eve how to express their love for HIM. The acceptable form of the expression of love isn't to write a check, it's to obey and trust. Sin arose when Adam and Eve refused even that simple request. They went so far as to reject God's kindness and wishes in favor of their own desires and attitudes. Consequently, as they rejected God - God in turn rejected them. There is nothing worse in the life of man or God than unrequited love. It is devastating and may last a life time. In the case of Adam Eve and God it did.
Therein began the Biblical story of God's work upon the earth to redeem man from sin and self-centered love and tendency toward self-destruction. The Bible is the story of redemption, nothing more and nothing less and that story is six thousand years old and counting. It isn't a book about dinosaurs or a time table for creation. It's about redemption - pure and simple. Nothing else.
Man permanently lost his autonomous ability to make decisions about his relationship with God or other men in the Garden of Eden. It was lost forever and will NEVER be restored. What God did do was to recreate the species with the ability to show Him and by extension each other - love.
This recreation is in association with the Holy Spirit and is called the Second Birth. It is the creation of a new type of creature - one that has a permanent link with God.
In the new earth, those who have accepted the second birth will live with God. The rest will suffer the second death. It isn't fair, but it is just.
and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
At least you're willing to admit that it isn't fair...we'll work on you definition of 'Just' later and it will involve the realization that there's no Justice in a rigged game where the losers get tortured forever! Under your model (as far as I can tell), God supposedly made the rules of this game from the beginning knowing full well that it would be virtually impossible for 90%+ of all humanity to avoid being Tortured forever. If this is justice, than it makes what the worst and most torturous of all dictators in history did look like a Disneyland ride...and people are starting to figure this out and its making new atheists and/or 'fallen away' Christians every day!..its time for a bit or a lot of open mindedness about Christian eternal plan/destiny theology...and age of the earth possibilities apparently..
..And for the last time, keep it down up there! The Elders board is having a meeting downstairs about the getting a new Worship Arts Pastor! One of the applicants actually has some Choir experience!!
So you are OK with a 'love-based relationship' where one partner says.... 'You are free to love me or not - but if you don't love me I will kill you.'
(Crickets) ....Gee, I'm sooo surprised the thread stopped with this question... Its the logical and moral conundrum that makes the traditionalist view of our faith look as logically flawed as suicide bombing to outsiders... While the aspect of God being a creator does make it much more complicated that just a bunch of people being asked to love with an abusive or threatening spouse, the logic really isn't that different...in some ways (as I demonstrated above), the creator aspect might even make the whole thing much worse
So the question is always asked: "Why did God create sin?"
"He didn't," you reply. "Sin is a result of man having free will."
Okay, so the whole 'tree in the garden' setup was because God wanted Adam and Eve to freely choose Him and they chose... poorly. Bummer for us.
But then we are told about the end of days, where God will 'destroy' sin and death and all the righteous will live in a New Earth which will have no tears, sadness or sin.
So how can God set up a world in the future where there's no sin and presumably free will but He couldn't just set that up in the first place?
I feel like there's a logical contradiction here and I would like to hear some opinions on this from other Christians.
It's not a logical contradiction. Rather, it's you having a problem with the way you perceive the Bible says God is doing things.
You think what makes sense is for God to create the universe sinless in the first place, and not to give man a choice in the matter (the choice to obey God freely or disobey God freely).
It's not a logical contradiction. Rather, it's you having a problem with the way you perceive the Bible says God is doing things.
You think what makes sense is for God to create the universe sinless in the first place, and not to give man a choice in the matter (the choice to obey God freely or disobey God freely).
You are correct when you state that there are logical contradictions, but they are all false assumptions on your part. If you wish to rewrite history or the Biblical record to suit your own bias and agenda then do so, but don't cry to God or anybody else when you fall into error of your own design.
The Eden story is misrepresented by the religious community as well as the secular one, each for their own reasons. Bear in mind that God created Adam and Eve AND the garden for good purpose. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate HE had any other goal in mind.
One good gift that God intended to give to Adam and Eve was a way for them to show love - real love - to God. But how does one love God? You can't mail a Hallmark greeting card to heaven on Father's Day. Nobody knows the address and air mail wouldn't deliver it anyway. You can't write a check and send it to God for the same reason. What bank account does God use? None actually. You can't even give God a hug. Ok so how do you show real love to God? He has told us how. God considers trust and obedience to be ultimate acts of human love toward Him. It's not the same as a roll in the hay with men and women and it's not the same as scratching a puppy behind the ear. Then again God isn't a creature. His desires and attitudes are completely alien to us - so He has to explain it to us personally.
He tried to tell Adam and Eve how to express their love for HIM. The acceptable form of the expression of love isn't to write a check, it's to obey and trust. Sin arose when Adam and Eve refused even that simple request. They went so far as to reject God's kindness and wishes in favor of their own desires and attitudes. Consequently, as they rejected God - God in turn rejected them. There is nothing worse in the life of man or God than unrequited love. It is devastating and may last a life time. In the case of Adam Eve and God it did.
Therein began the Biblical story of God's work upon the earth to redeem man from sin and self-centered love and tendency toward self-destruction. The Bible is the story of redemption, nothing more and nothing less and that story is six thousand years old and counting. It isn't a book about dinosaurs or a time table for creation. It's about redemption - pure and simple. Nothing else.
Man permanently lost his autonomous ability to make decisions about his relationship with God or other men in the Garden of Eden. It was lost forever and will NEVER be restored. What God did do was to recreate the species with the ability to show Him and by extension each other - love.
This recreation is in association with the Holy Spirit and is called the Second Birth. It is the creation of a new type of creature - one that has a permanent link with God.
In the new earth, those who have accepted the second birth will live with God. The rest will suffer the second death. It isn't fair, but it is just.
and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
I would only disagree with the highlighted ones. God's purpose remains the same and that includes man, man's relationship with God and the earth. NO recreation, just a work in progress since man chose to rebel. Kinda like a broken bone, you do not replace the while limb, you just fix the break.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Sinless with Free Will... Impossible or Not?
..its time for a bit or a lot of open mindedness about Christian eternal plan/destiny theology...and age of the earth possibilities apparently..
Its the logical and moral conundrum that makes the traditionalist view of our faith look as logically flawed as suicide bombing to outsiders... While the aspect of God being a creator does make it much more complicated that just a bunch of people being asked to love with an abusive or threatening spouse, the logic really isn't that different...in some ways (as I demonstrated above), the creator aspect might even make the whole thing much worse 
