Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I sure hope you're right and would love to be wrong on this
It's just how I read it.
It scares the beejeebers out of me
And was a huge reason why I am middle aged and never went to church
My parents forbid it as a child
I don't want ANYONE to suffer eternal torment in hell.
It’s not a reference to that which is Eternal (aidios), having no beginning or end. Furthermore, the words endless torment (adialeipton timorion) or eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (age abiding) kalasin (correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with punishment or life for that matter.
There are only two places in the New Testament where "Aidios" is used, which speaks to that of his "eternal" power, but nothing about an everlasting punishment without end. And life has a beginning.
I sure hope you're right and would love to be wrong on this
It's just how I read it.
It scares the beejeebers out of me
And was a huge reason why I am middle aged and never went to church
My parents forbid it as a child
I don't want ANYONE to suffer eternal torment in hell.
Me either. I don't think either you nor I have more love and compassion than God (who IS love) has. So, if we would never allow anyone to suffer eternally, do you really think God would?
In finding your answer (I often know it but not the verse offhand so google it) I found something else interesting. Not to get off topic but check this out
R0mans 5: 12-Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world,and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So death and sin entered the world thru one man.
So bodily and eternal death entered the word via Adam.
So yes, Adam caused bodily death.
Because even "the little ones" who are not held to the laws standard, (sin only exists when the law is the standard) thus will not face hell, will experience a bodily death.
Sin was imputed into us via Adam.
If you believe the verse above, do you also believe the verse (1 Cor 15:22) that says, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." ?
According to that passage, the same "all" who supposedly die in Adam, will be made alive in Christ. Rules out eternal torment for anyone, doesn't it.
In finding your answer (I often know it but not the verse offhand so google it) I found something else interesting. Not to get off topic but check this out
R0mans 5: 12-Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world,and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So death and sin entered the world thru one man.
So bodily and eternal death entered the word via Adam.
So yes, Adam caused bodily death.
Because even "the little ones" who are not held to the laws standard, (sin only exists when the law is the standard) thus will not face hell, will experience a bodily death.
Sin was imputed into us via Adam.
The book of Romans is where it's at - and a very complex book, yet a book one really needs to understand through prayer for God to open our eyes. When I was in church/es (many), I find that I just glossed through the scriptures assuming I understood them, possibly because I had been told what they mean, and partly out of not actually asking God to show me what does this really mean, what is it saying. I went through a Sunday school study in a Baptist setting many years before I walked alone with God and looking back - they NEVER even came close to getting the magnificence of what the writer was saying about Christ's sacrifice and how it compared to the transgression. The book of Romans is the REVERSE of the CURSE book. It is the Christ as the new Adam and his sacrifice being way GREATER than Adam's transgression. How great was Adam's transgression? Great enough to plunge the human race into hell on earth. That is a BIG transgression. I'm surprised we have anything good to say about the first Adam at this point.
Any human heart that can accept this evil as justified and reasonable has no idea who our God IS and their heart epitomizes a hardened heart, IMO.
I would have to agree with you. I weep over the lost, the confused, the fearful, the deceived. Jesus ever lives to make intercession for those who are lost. Dare we mock those who Jesus is making intercession for? That is cold, and common as dirt within Christian circles. There is a parable about the monstrosity that Christianity would become -- about a seed growing up into a giant tree where birds nest. Going to try to find that one.
If you believe the verse above, do you also believe the verse (1 Cor 15:22) that says, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." ?
According to that passage, the same "all" who supposedly die in Adam, will be made alive in Christ. Rules out eternal torment for anyone, doesn't it.
Here is 1 Cor 15 in its entirety. The audience aka the "all" he is speaking to, and referring to, are fellow brothers and sisters, they are saved. So yes, all Disciples of Christ will be made alive in Christ.
The Resurrection of Christ 1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importancea : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas,b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. 9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
The Resurrection of the Dead 12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23
We also have this verse to contend with, it's quite straightforward
Rev 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Here is 1 Cor 15 in its entirety. The audience aka the "all" he is speaking to, and referring to, are fellow brothers and sisters, they are saved. So yes, all Disciples of Christ will be made alive in Christ.
[/b]
The Resurrection of Christ 1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importancea : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas,b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. 9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
The Resurrection of the Dead 12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23
You do not believe that all people "die in Adam"? Just disciples of Christ?
Quote:
We also have this verse to contend with, it's quite straightforward
Rev 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
That made me chuckle. You think the book of Revelation is "straightforward", when it is a book of symbolism?
The book of Romans is where it's at - and a very complex book, yet a book one really needs to understand through prayer for God to open our eyes. When I was in church/es (many), I find that I just glossed through the scriptures assuming I understood them, possibly because I had been told what they mean, and partly out of not actually asking God to show me what does this really mean, what is it saying. I went through a Sunday school study in a Baptist setting many years before I walked alone with God and looking back - they NEVER even came close to getting the magnificence of what the writer was saying about Christ's sacrifice and how it compared to the transgression. The book of Romans is the REVERSE of the CURSE book. It is the Christ as the new Adam and his sacrifice being way GREATER than Adam's transgression. How great was Adam's transgression? Great enough to plunge the human race into hell on earth. That is a BIG transgression. I'm surprised we have anything good to say about the first Adam at this point.
Yes I need to study the book of Romans. We finished up Hebrews and that really helped me understand atonement for sin, the new and better covenant vs the old one.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Me either. I don't think either you nor I have more love and compassion than God (who IS love) has. So, if we would never allow anyone to suffer eternally, do you really think God would?
Any human heart that can accept this evil as justified and reasonable has no idea who our God IS and their heart epitomizes a hardened heart, IMO.
