What is the difference between faith and belief? (Bible, verses, history)

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

Maybe we should make a distinction between the following two types of statements:

I believe in X (or I have faith in X)
I believe that X (or I have faith that X)

In this thread, I'm more concerned with believe-that statements than believe-in statements. Obviously, I recognize the place of statements like "I have faith that you'll do the right thing." That sort of statement is not a proposition about whether something or someone exists; it is simply an expression of confidence that that thing or person will do the right thing. But in the context of religion, "faith" isn't only used to refer to confidence. It is used to express belief-that. Faith is often cited for why a person believes in god, not just as an explanation for how a person has confidence that god will do some specific thing.

Do you think the following belief-that statements make sense when the word "faith" is used?

I have faith that I am typing on the City Data forum.

I have faith that I am in my home state right now.

I have faith that mammals give live birth.

My intuition is that these statements make no sense. If that's the case, then why is "faith" used for belief-that statements rather than simply belief-in statements? Most Christians think the concept of faith is relevant to their belief in the existence of god, not just their belief that god will act in a certain way. As such, we should expect faith-that statements to make more sense than they do.

Edit to add: The third definition of pistis is the definition I am taking issue with: 3.) That which is believed . That definition is suggesting that faith can refer to belief-that. As such, we should expect statements like "I have faith that I am typing on the City Data forum right now" to make sense, but they don't.

You either are, or you are not typing.
But I am sure you already know that.

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

You either are, or you are not typing.
But I am sure you already know that.

I'm not sure I get the relevance. All propositions either are true or are not true. I know I am typing right now, and if faith is simply having knowledge, then the statement "I have faith that I am typing on City Data" should make sense. I don't think it does.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

Maybe we should make a distinction between the following two types of statements:

I believe in X (or I have faith in X)
I believe that X (or I have faith that X)

In this thread, I'm more concerned with believe-that statements than believe-in statements. Obviously, I recognize the place of statements like "I have faith that you'll do the right thing." That sort of statement is not a proposition about whether something or someone exists; it is simply an expression of confidence that that thing or person will do the right thing. But in the context of religion, "faith" isn't only used to refer to confidence. It is used to express belief-that. Faith is often cited for why a person believes in god, not just as an explanation for how a person has confidence that god will do some specific thing.

Do you think the following belief-that statements make sense when the word "faith" is used?

I have faith that I am typing on the City Data forum.

I have faith that I am in my home state right now.

I have faith that mammals give live birth.

My intuition is that these statements make no sense. If that's the case, then why is "faith" used for belief-that statements rather than simply belief-in statements? Most Christians think the concept of faith is relevant to their belief in the existence of god, not just their belief that god will act in a certain way. As such, we should expect faith-that statements to make more sense than they do.

Edit to add: The third definition of pistis is the definition I am taking issue with: 3.) That which is believed . That definition is suggesting that faith can refer to belief-that. As such, we should expect statements like "I have faith that I am typing on the City Data forum right now" to make sense, but they don't.

Well, as I said, there are probably instances where it would be more appropriate to use one word instead of the other, and I agree that it doesn't make any sense to say ''I have faith that I am typing on the City Data forum.'' But then I also don't think it's much more appropriate to say, ''I believe that I am typing on the City Data forum.'' If I'm typing on the City Data forum which I am doing at this moment, I know for a fact that I am typing on it. I'm not one of those philosophical types who think that you can't really know anything.

Again however, I think it's fine to say, ''I have faith that my truck's brakes will work because they have been checked and are in good condition,'' or ''I have faith that my chair will support my weight the next time I sit on it because it always has and it is as sturdy as ever.''


So far as faith being cited for why a person believes in god, speaking for myself, I have faith/belief that God exists because for one thing I trust the attestation of the apostles who claimed to be eye-witnesses to the resurrected Jesus and as a result were willing to suffer and even die for what they claimed to be eye-witnesses to. I believe that they actually did see the resurrected Jesus because none of the naturalistic explanations such as the conspiracy, hallucination, mistaken identity theories, etc., really can account for why they believe they saw the resurrected Jesus. For another reason, I believe the continued existence of the Jews, and the fact that Israel once again exists as a nation is evidence that God, the God of the Bible, exists. My faith, my belief that God exists is based on what I consider to be sound historical evidence. I don't believe that faith exists apart from evidence.

There is no reason to take exception to the third definition of pistis in which it refers to a body of teaching as in the Christian faith/Christianity. Words have a semantic range of meaning. This definition of 'faith' is used in the Bible itself. For example. In Acts 13:6-8, τῆς πίστεως/tēs pisteōs/the faith refers to what is also called ''the Way'' in Acts 24:14. The faith/the Way/the Christian faith.

Acts 13:6 When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they found a magician, a Jewish false prophet whose name was Bar-Jesus, 7] who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence. This man summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8] But Elymas the magician (for so his name is translated) was opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith ( τῆς πίστεως/tēs pisteōs).

And Galatians 1:23 with reference to Paul who before he encountered the risen Jesus on the Damascus road persecuted Christians but now was preaching the faith.

Gal. 1:23 but only, they kept hearing, "He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith (τὴν πίστιν/ tēn pistin/the faith) which he once tried to destroy."

And 1 Timothy 4:1 and 4:6.

1 Tim. 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith(τῆς πίστεως), paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

1 Timothy 4:6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith (τῆς πίστεως ) and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

In all of those verses, pistis is used for that which is believed - the faith, the Way, the Christian faith. 'Turn the proconsul away from the faith', 'preaching the faith', 'fall away from the faith', 'nourished on the words of the faith.'

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Mike555

But then I also don't think it's much more appropriate to say, ''I believe that I am typing on the City Data forum.'' If I'm typing on the City Data forum which I am doing at this moment, I know for a fact that I am typing on it. I'm not one of those philosophical types who think that you can't really know anything.

If you know X, then you believe X. All examples of knowledge are also examples of beliefs. The requirements for knowledge are generally accepted as being justified, true belief plus some kind of anti-luck element.

Everything I know I also believe.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Again however, I think it's fine to say, ''I have faith that my truck's brakes will work because they have been checked and are in good condition,'' or ''I have faith that my chair will support my weight the next time I sit on it because it always has and it is as sturdy as ever.''

Those examples are simply muddying the water of whether we are discussing confidence in something happening or the truthfulness of a proposition. What I'm trying to ask here is whether the word "faith" can be used solely to refer to one's acceptance of a proposition, because that is how people often use it when describing their belief in god.

Originally Posted by Mike555

I don't believe that faith exists apart from evidence.

Then how does it mean anything other than "belief"? If I can't say "I have faith that I am typing on City Data" even though I hold that proposition to be true, why can I say "I have faith that god exists" if I hold that proposition to be true?

Originally Posted by Mike555

There is no reason to take exception to the third definition of pistis in which it refers to a body of teaching as in the Christian faith/Christianity. Words have a semantic range of meaning. This definition of 'faith' is used in the Bible itself. For example. In Acts 13:6-8, τῆς πίστεως/tēs pisteōs/the faith refers to what is also called ''the Way'' in Acts 24:14. The faith/the Way/the Christian faith.

Acts 13:6 When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they found a magician, a Jewish false prophet whose name was Bar-Jesus, 7] who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence. This man summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8] But Elymas the magician (for so his name is translated) was opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith ( τῆς πίστεως/tēs pisteōs).

And Galatians 1:23 with reference to Paul who before he encountered the risen Jesus on the Damascus road persecuted Christians but now was preaching the faith.

Gal. 1:23 but only, they kept hearing, "He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith (τὴν πίστιν/ tēn pistin/the faith) which he once tried to destroy."

And 1 Timothy 4:1 and 4:6.

1 Tim. 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith(τῆς πίστεως), paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

1 Timothy 4:6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith (τῆς πίστεως ) and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

In all of those verses, pistis is used for that which is believed - the faith, the Way, the Christian faith. 'Turn the proconsul away from the faith', 'preaching the faith', 'fall away from the faith', 'nourished on the words of the faith.'

I'm not taking exception with the definition in the sense that I think it is incorrect. I am merely saying that is the definition that I am interested in here. As it stands, however, this usage of faith seems peculiar to me, for the reasons I've stated above.

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

So a person can believe the right things and do the right things, but if they don't have the right feelings, they aren't a Christian? I guess those with low emotional affect personality disorders are doomed for all of eternity?

Edit to add: As I think more about your view, it seems like you are supporting the point I made in my original post: faith is just a belief that isn't sensitive to the evidence. If we are emotionally committed to a certain proposition, we are committed to believing it even if the evidence available to us changes. The belief, then, isn't sensitive to the evidence. It is supported by our feelings.

That sociopaths are fully human may be in question, but it is not a question of having the "right feelings," the capability for empathy is a requirement for the Christian faith, and commitment IS an emotional response...how else? As for eternity, that is a possible background for change; without the possibility of change you are just talking about revenge...a very primitive idea, having nothing to do with belief or faith.

Try to distinguish between evidence and proof: there may be no absolute proof of a proposition, but one lacking evidence is just fantasy.

[The Last Amalekite 1Sam15]

What's the difference?

[Miss Hepburn]

Last Amalekite...that was great!
~~~~~~~~

Yet, another perspective...and it took me a year to get this!
(Because it was not explained this way...)

You can have all the love and faith in the world...
-you have faith that God loves you,
-wants only your good,
-wants you healed and well, as shown by Jesus;
-has the power easily to, say, heal you.....BUT!...
If you have a belief that you
-deserve to have this disease,
-you have been a bad person and
-this is a punishment,
-your father and his father died of this
-so it is your destiny thru genes....
there is no way you will get better or a healer can plow thru those 'blocks of belief'.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost
Maybe we should make a distinction between the following two types of statements:

Do you think the following belief-that statements make sense when the word "faith" is used?
I have faith that I am typing on the City Data forum.
I have faith that I am in my home state right now.
I have faith that mammals give live birth.

They are neither faith or belief based...you know these things.

Questions like:
I believe the sun with come up.
I have faith the sun will come up.
I know the sun will come up.

To me, are worthy of dissection.
Again, not trying to cause trouble here!
Cuz, I'm hoping that chair over there will hold me in a minute!

[L8Gr8Apost8]

IMO they can have different meanings depending on what subject one is talking about. I don't think you can interchange them across topics like: faith my car will start, faith I will wake in the morning, faith that God is watching me. In the context of spirituality I think that faith supports a belief that can't be adequately justified yet but you fully expect it to be at some point. I see faith as being a component of belief in lieu of substantiation. I think faith relies heavy on emotional reasoning. "If no God, then life has no meaning , ergo there HAS to be a sentient creator". "I can think of no other explanation for me existing, ergo God HAS to exist".

[L8Gr8Apost8]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

They are neither faith or belief based...you know these things.

Questions like:
I believe the sun with come up.
I have faith the sun will come up.
I know the sun will come up.

To me, are worthy of dissection.
Again, not trying to cause trouble here!
Cuz, I'm hoping that chair over there will hold me in a minute!

The trouble with KNOWING is that being incorrect about something can feel exactly like being correct about that something. I'm not saying you are or are not.