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Heb 11:1 1Nowfaithis the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thingsnotseen.
...receive a healing?
That's the evidence of what you had faith for.
It's an active pulling down of those things out of the realm of "are not" and into the realm of "is". Peace
Ah, the pulling out of the Unseen Realms...faith is the like the waxing of the slide from
the Unseen to the seen...I do it all the time.
To some it seems like magic...to some others it is no more magical than an Unseen Force digesting your
food right now and growing your fingernails at this very moment.
All perspective.
Like what Wardendresden said...trust...I have enough faith and trust in the Unseen Realms that
I put myself out there on the line when asked and go to the ICU and pray, (decree, really)
a healing...why do I put myself on the line for possible ridicule or failure?
Because I trust the Unseen will, indeed, heal the person in that coma being kept alive by only machines and 'dying'.
I do not find it dangerous at all to believe in what some call magic, nate...magic is
simply what some do not understand the workings of.
Yet, Jesus (since this is the Christian section) spelled it out all the time...Ask, believe and receive...'You may ask anything in my name and I will do it.' John 14:14
or Matthew 21:22,
'If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.' or
John 16:23:
'My father will give you whatever you ask in my name, until now you have not
asked for anything in my name.
Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.'
Seems like magic, tho, for those that don't get it.
Magic or the Formula? It is how this Universe works. And many of us know it!!!! Yay!
Last edited by Miss Hepburn; 05-30-2017 at 06:50 AM..
If you know something for a fact, then you believe it. That's a requirement for knowledge. To Miss Hepburn: See my post above. If you know X, you also believe X.
I liked your diagram, yes. Thank you....because I have shied away from saying I believe something....
when I actually know it to be true.
Oh, just read what Mike555 said, tho...I see his point ''I believe things that
I don't know all the time.'' Boy, tricky words, faith, belief and knowing!
Christianity has about 5 different kinds of faith, only one of which is even close to "belief without evidence",
and that is faith as belief-in/belief-about a certain set of dogmatic assertions by a process of intellection. All the other kinds of Christian faith connote trust rather than belief.
It is also worth noting that "believe" is derived from an old English word which means "beloving".
I would say that religiously, spiritually-defined
faith means consciously entering into a relationship with God
that means centering on the Spirit (rather than on the world or culture), and undergoing a transformation from ego-based living to soul-based living.
And here you are again!
Who are you, because you know a LOT!
And you are very clear and precise.
Reminds me of:
Col 3:2 Focus on the things above and not things on the earth...
Don't we do this with ordinary belief all the time? Every single one of us acts as though some of our beliefs are true, but we simultaneously know they might not be. What distinguishes "faith" from "belief" in this context?
It is precisely what we do all the time. Virtually every action requires a modicum of faith, even if it is merely the faith that the laws of the universe will continue to operate as they always have. We let the evidence and reasoning take us as far as they can, and then we act in faith. In the case of stepping onto a ladder that we have previously examined thoroughly, evidence and reasoning can take us 99.999% of the way; the faith required is miniscule. In the case of a metaphysical truth, the faith required is very large.
It sounds to me as though you are insisting that the term "faith" must have a technical religious meaning (or possibly that it is a meaningless term that describes believers' "magical thinking"). I don't believe this is true at all. Faith is simply a matter of degree, depending upon the context.
Several people in this thread have mentioned the idea that faith is action. If that were true, why does scripture specifically say "faith without works is dead"? Does that imply that it is possible to have faith without having works?
I believe the verses in James mesh well with what i have stated. The entire passage is, "But someone may well say, 'you have faith and i have works; show me your faith without the works, and i will show you my faith by my works.' you believe that god is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?"
James is not making a technical distinction between "belief" and "faith" but between mere belief/faith and works. He is using "belief" and "faith" interchangeably in response to those who were saying (as some do today), "We have faith - we don't need works." it is taken for granted that those Christians who say this "believe." James points out that even the demons believe. But belief becomes faith when you put it into action.
I don't see how "trust" is applicable here. It seems to me that we regularly form beliefs based on the best available evidence, and we then take appropriate actions based on those beliefs. There's no more "trusting" involved in that than there is in deciding to call in poker with a royal flush or folding with a 2 and a 7. "trusting" implies that we are putting our confidence in some outside entity to work on our behalf.
"Faith" is simply trust that the actions you decide to take are indeed appropriate. In the religious context, yes - you are acting on the basis of your belief that your actions are in accordance with the will of a higher entity that you cannot know for certain exists. In the case of worldly actions, you are acting on the basis of more secure beliefs and not on the basis of any belief in a higher entity but still with trust that you have correctly evaluated and applied the evidence. In some cases, your trust may be little more than "the laws of physics will continue to operate as they always have" but there is still an element of trust.
I believe faith and trust are essentially interchangeable and that religious faith or trust is not in some completely different category from secular faith or trust. If one insists that it is, I believe that (1) one is simply wrong, and (2) one is being driven by an agenda to reach the conclusion that "faith" is meaningless in the religious context and is not a valid basis for action.
Then why does scripture say it is possible to have faith without works?
I believe my answer to that is set forth above. James is distinguishing between "belief in which faith is dead," which even the demons have, and "belief in which faith is alive through works." I think he is willing to make a distinction between the demons who merely believe and the Christians who equate their beliefs with faith. If he said, "You don't have faith at all, my brothers" he would be equating them with the demons. Instead he says, "Without works, your faith is dead - show me your faith by your works."
Ah, the pulling out of the Unseen Realms...faith is the like the waxing of the slide from
the Unseen to the seen...I do it all the time.
To some it seems like magic...to some others it is no more magical than an Unseen Force digesting your
food right now and growing your fingernails at this very moment.
All perspective.
Like what Wardendresden said...trust...I have enough faith and trust in the Unseen Realms that
I put myself out there on the line when asked and go to the ICU and pray, (decree, really)
a healing...why do I put myself on the line for possible ridicule or failure?
Because I trust the Unseen will, indeed, heal the person in that coma being kept alive by only machines and 'dying'.
I do not find it dangerous at all to believe in what some call magic, nate...magic is
simply what some do not understand the workings of.
Yet, Jesus (since this is the Christian section) spelled it out all the time...Ask, believe and receive...'You may ask anything in my name and I will do it.' John 14:14
or Matthew 21:22,
'If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.' or
John 16:23:
'My father will give you whatever you ask in my name, until now you have not
asked for anything in my name.
Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.'
Seems like magic, tho, for those that don't get it.
Magic or the Formula? It is how this Universe works. And many of us know it!!!! Yay!
I agree. I rely on Him to tell me what to do, what to say. Once I hear, I do or say it (decree is true, it's the realm of the King). Surprisingly, in that circumstance I don't think faith is that big an issue, in the sense of how much is required. Because, if He spoke it (for me to speak in faith), how much faith does it really take to believe He will perform what He spoke? Not much, in my view, because He would not have spoken it, if He did not intend to do it, I can surely count on that. The Spirit always comes to perform the word, the word of faith via the gift of faith.
So it's really not "magic", only appears to be because someone doesn't know the rules of the Kingdom within and how it works. Just as you don't know how a magician's tricks work, but once understood, you could with practice. likely duplicate.
Faith is like a muscle; the more you exercise it, the stronger it gets. People also forget, that healing is the children's bread. So why are not more children partaking of it? Fear, doubt, and unbelief, I'd say, and the shutting up of His mouth, the speaking gifts of the Spirit that give direction and instruction in the first place, as to what to do and what to say.
The things He does and the way He does them are so breathtaking and remarkable it's truly hard to stay silent sometimes, about all I've seen and experienced in this measure of Him. But to those that believe, no more proof is needed, and to those that don't, no proof will ever be enough until they experience it for themselves. Perhaps it's meant to be that way. Peace
Just so I am clear on your position, are you saying that "faith" does not and cannot refer to the mere fact of believing? Does it make sense for someone to point to faith when explaining why they believe in god (the mere fact that they believe, not why they follow Christianity)?
I am not sure I agree with your secular use of faith. Me stepping onto a ladder is a calculated risk. It is not faith. Acting upon a justified belief because one has good reason to think the odds are sufficiently high that the desired outcome will be the actual outcome isn't faith -- at least not how I conceive of it. It just a calculated risk.
Regarding James: You seem to sometimes be saying that faith is the action we take based on belief. At other times, you are saying that "faith" and "belief" are interchangeable. If anything, that passage in James would lead me to believe that faith is possible without works. If so, then faith is not simply the acting out of a belief.
...Just to be clear, "belief" simply means something I hold to be true...
I'm on board with that.
Quote:
The only explanation that seems plausible to me is that "faith" refers to beliefs that we arrive at through alternative epistemological routes. In other words, we don't arrive at faith simply by analyzing the evidence, as we do in most cases of belief. If that is true, why is faith a good thing? Shouldn't we aim for ordinary belief?
The author of Hebrews equates faith with having confidence and conviction.
So, if he was correct, it seems it's perhaps just a matter of degree. One can hold something to be true, but not have confidence in it when the rubber meets the road.
I believe it is true that non-poisonous spiders pose no threat to me and are actually beneficial to my environment and should not be killed for my emotional comfort. I don't have confidence in that belief, nor the conviction to stand by it when I come face to face with a spider in my home, however. I have a belief in spiders, but very little faith in them.
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Yay!
Thank you....because I have shied away from saying I believe something....
