Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Not in Isaiah 53. Are you claiming that Jesus was wrong when He applied Isaiah 53 to Himself? Do you believe that Philip was wrong when he said that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus?
And how in Isaiah 53 can the suffering servant be Israel when the suffering servant is rendering Himself as a guilt offering for the transgression of the people (Israel) for whom the stroke was due? The suffering servant bore the sin of many (Israel) and interceded for the transgressors. Israel can not intercede for Israel.
As Messianic Jew Michael Brown says in 'Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus' vol. 3, p. 41,
The servant of the Lord (Hebrew, 'ebed') is mentioned a total of seventeen times in Isaiah 40-51, sometimes with reference to the nation Israel as a whole (41:8-9; twice in 42:19; 43:10; twice in 44:21; 45:4; 48:20), and sometimes with reference to a righteous individual within the nation (49:3, 5-7; 50:10). In several verses, it is not clear whether an individual or the nation (or a righteous remmant within the nation) is referred to, although a good case can be made for the individual interpretation (42:1; 44:1-2). Significantly, the most personal specific, individual language is found in Isaiah 52:13 and 53:11, roughly the beginning and the end of this glorious prophetic passage. Reviewing the data just presented, we can see something very important. The references to the servant as a people actually end with Isaiah 48:20, while the references to the servant as an individual come into indisputable focus beginning with Isaiah 49 and continuing through the end of chapter 53.
In some places the servant doe refer to a people, while in other places, the whole of chapter 53, the servant refers to an individual who intercede on behalf of the transgressors (Israel).
Once again, both Philip and Jesus said Isaiah 53 referred to Him. With that being the case, the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 cannot be referring to Israel.
This is only as you understand it.
Israel was a fallen people at the time. Once they turn and serve individually they are freed by the son who they become by serving the Father. Jesus was not referring to Himself when He spoke in the first person. He was referring to those who become the son, the servant of God. That is why He also spoke in the third person.
Phillip had no clue.
Daniel 7:13
As I watched in the night visions, I saw one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. And he came to the Ancient One and was presented before him. 14 ]To him was given dominion and glory and kingship, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, and his kingship is one that shall never be destroyed. 15 As for me, Daniel, my spirit was troubled within me, and the visions of my head terrified me. 16 I approached one of the attendants to ask him the truth concerning all this. So he said that he would disclose to me the interpretation of the matter: 17 "As for these four great beasts, four kings shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the holy ones of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever—forever and ever."
Israel was a fallen people at the time. Once they turn and serve individually they are freed by the son who they become by serving the Father. Jesus was not referring to Himself when He spoke in the first person. He was referring to those who become the son, the servant of God. That is why He also spoke in the third person.
Phillip had no clue.
Daniel 7:13
As I watched in the night visions, I saw one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. And he came to the Ancient One and was presented before him. 14 ]To him was given dominion and glory and kingship, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, and his kingship is one that shall never be destroyed. 15 As for me, Daniel, my spirit was troubled within me, and the visions of my head terrified me. 16 I approached one of the attendants to ask him the truth concerning all this. So he said that he would disclose to me the interpretation of the matter: 17 "As for these four great beasts, four kings shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the holy ones of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever—forever and ever."
Making empty assertions such as ''Philip had no clue'' doesn't help your argument and simply puts you in the position of having to explain how you think you know more about Jesus than one of His own apostles. Philip was an apostle of Jesus' and had been with Him throughout His public ministry.
And Jesus was absolutely referring to Himself when He said that Isaiah 53 must be fulfilled in Him. Philip understood that full well.
Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about Me has its fulfillment.”
There is no justification for claiming that Jesus wasn't referring to Himself when He said that what was wrote in Isaiah 53 must be fulfilled in Him. It's an extremely weak attempt to deny what the text says and simply does not hold up.
Christians have normally taken sides for the Jews against all of their adversaries.
No matter if it was another jew who caused it all to happen that blamed all of the others.
Of course there are wonderful Jews, atheistic jews, and the money changers themselves, the devil sews.
Jews are not all evil or all good, some are, many are, just as their are good races, as there are bad parts as partnerships.
Meaning individuals are either capable of producing good works, or bad ones, evil tares they are called, collectors of stones.
The Lord Jesus Christ opened his arms up to all kinds of people, and simply put, he never denied a single opportunity to know of him.
When you cast a shadow of a doubt against all of Israel, meaning the church is included, just because the Hebrews called it grafting them in.
Not all of Israel is Israel, though it may try to make itself out to be, one's fruits is what matters, be it a Jew or a Gentile, half a scoundrel cannot enter inn.
Persecution of any people trying to live a normal life inside a society infested by 'ill works no evil', has always been there to be, as who lives for Christ suffers persecution.
They also who are not, and so what you are talking about is perhaps by the actions of a few, or at many, since if the congregation does not judge itself will find itself torn up within.
The unfair assessment of the church world for believing in a risen Christ, because Moses must remain at the forefront, that some never died, but lived to bury 'The Gospel of Jesus Christ is forever living'.
Carrying the commandments of God, the ark of the covenant, Christ died to fulfill it, the 10 commandments were meant to be the law man lived by, his neighbor included the breath of life is found in the wind.
Since Christians routinely bless Israel, because as a nation-state they have survived against all odds of surviving at all, your tempest against the church fails; if an inquisition was any better, it was because it was a civil way to amend.
The Roman party is over with, the papacy declined, good-bye for redacting the scriptures to make it seem there was never a Coptic church, or other written works of the Gospels, "The Gospel of the Holy Twelve", to bite do you get the first round.
Round Table of Arthur, Thor's chambers of the south centered east, western urn of cheats, politics has changed the Earth for a lesser god called goods manufactured out of animal parts; the evil done to animals so that their fur may be made into coats was found.
To be wanton evil, that to spare the flock, one bird may be left allowed to escape to tell all the others that to be delivered into such senseless torment at the hands of devils who took on the bodies of men to perform such evil sacrilege, that torture of an animal is fun to such hands.
The persecution of the animal world is the greatest of all sins to have been given a blind eye for how long, that the purpose of the church is to rescue from those Christ said live on his Earth to constantly stir a pot of fear, torment at its best, that to take the fur of an animal off while it is living, sands.
Rocks to pebbles, stones to rocks, that Jesus said that if man will do nothing but sit and do nothing, that the stones of the rapture still cry out, that Christ lived, died, was buried, resurrected the third day, that Paradise is a Kingdom, that animals are part of his church, the Lord recognizes who loves him, celebrates.
In 6 days God created all that was to exemplify itself a to be fruitful, multiply, the temple was given sticks to atone for itself, but instead got to take a rod of iron and beat a horse to death because someone inside of manna-less got to convince the world that horse round-ups were good for the land so cattle could replace wolves.
So the tribe of Benjamin the governments of the world got to persecute, sent hunters out, but God craves for his church again to be as it was right in the beginning when he said man was to eat green, or herb himself a plate of carrots, the Lamb of God was blameless, blame less, take responsibility, for your own self-insignificance torments.
Just go ahead and look past the facts that Gentile converts to Judaism were the first church, YOUR first church didn't even begin for over 100 years after Jesus died, Christianity was a legal sect of Judaism for over 100 years dude.
YOUR church began when Gentiles started converting to the Babylonian religion that keeps the Sabbaths and feasts of the Babylonian Messiah named Tammuz.
YOUR church then began to persecute and kill anyone who would follow the Messiah in his 7 feasts, and YOUR church began killing all the Jews who refused to assimilate to YOUR pagan religion.
YOUR church set in to kill Gentile and Jew, whoever loved and kept the commandments of God were persecuted and killed by YOUR church for the last 2000 years.
YOUR church has fought against everything called of God and that is worshipped and it's goal is to turn the children of Israel away from following their God and if they will not turn away from their God, YOUR church has persecuted and killed them, and MADE then the suffering servant whom the whole world hates and persecutes for one SOLE reason.
They are persecuted and killed for being God's ONLY servant who loves the ways of God SO MUCH, that they WILLINGLY went to their deaths rather than to betray their God, and YOUR church killed them.
This isn't some fantasy make up things as you go, we have 2000 years of history written in stone how the church went out and persecuted anyone who would follow Messiah in his worship system of 7 feasts.
Gentiles ORIGINALLY came converting because they saw the beauty of the Passover lamb, but now the church would fight against the very thing that converted gentiles to Jesus, and now they no longer have a Passover lamb.
Now people like you are quoting scriptures written to gentile converts of Judaism and you are inserting yourself into a religion that you don't even belong to, if you belonged to Messiah and his religion, the world would ALSO hate you just like Jesus said it would. Anyone who takes up their cross and walks as Jesus walked in the law is hated and persecuted and this is EXTREEMLY obvious, maybe you don't see it, but I dare you to take on the ways of Jesus for just one year.
I dare you to walk as Jesus walked in all the feasts, because you would find out that following God and his son brings hate and persecution.
But rather than follow Christ, you sit there from Babylon speaking about Gentile converts to Judaism acting as if you are one of them, but you don't look anything like the first church.
You don't look anything like Paul who never stopped keeping the laws of Moses.
You don't look anything like any of the disciples and you aren't in the same religion and this is EXTREEMLY obvious.
Jesus and those first disciples in the first church DID NOT come teaching lawlessness along with the practices of Babylonian Gods, YOU SAY THEY DID, HISTORY states something completely different.
You keep comparing your Babylonian religion with Judaism, and your Babylonian Messiah to the Messiah of Jerusalem. The Messiah of Jerusalem is the Passover lamb, he is the red heifer, he is the ram of Shavuot, the goat of Yom Kippur, and the sukkot Bull.
There is no mistake in what you worship.
God is not double minded and he is not confused about his appointed worship system of Sabbaths and feasts, maybe YOU want to stand above the word of God and that is on you, but God Certainly did not send his son for you to worship and keep the ways of a Babylonian Messiah NO MATTER how much you make these claims, YOUR religion didn't exist in the days of the New Testament, YOU have decided to convert to the Pagan God's of Rome, and that's all.
If you can show a Jesus who came teaching lawlessness, and teaching people to betray God and his ways, then I would really like to see that, but there is no such a thing because Jesus did not come doing such a thing.
Those first gentiles were on fire to become like Jews, and those first righteous Gentile went to their death BECAUSE they were so righteous as to go to their death RATHER than betray Jesus and his sacrifice,
That's alright though Warden, I mean, I really don't know what to say to a person who has converted to a Pagan worship system, but there is AT LEAST HOPE, BECAUSE Jesus said that whoever doesn't keep the laws of Moses, to then teach others not to keep the laws of Moses will be the least in the kingdom of heaven, and so maybe you are still in heaven, I just don't know if you will be given a pass for taking on the worship system of the God's of Babylon and Tammuz, the Babylonian Messiah.
But you can speak against Jesus, and even hate the law to teach others not to keep the laws of Moses and still be saved.
What God does with people who have involved themselves with other God's, I do not know, but I suspect that you are STILL saved, although it is unfortunate what is said about people who don't keep the law and teaches others not to keep it. IT IS UNFORTUNATE that you cannot see the law for what it is, and the law is a beautiful spiritual love letter to those who love it, and a planned, designed path to walk in for everyone who dies daily as the Passover lamb to then walk in the wheat in a progressive plan that leads to the feast of Tabernacles.
But what you are doing Warden, you are inserting yourself into the religion of the New Testament which is written to converts of Judaism, and you come reading with bias against the law when they in fact, had no bias against the law.
Nobody judged anyone in feast of new moon laws because the curse of not keeping the law was lifted. I don't go up to Jerusalem personally, I don't build a Sukkah, and I don't keep the feasts or the Sabbath laws like God has ordained and nobody can say anything to me if I don't keep all the laws of the Sabbaths and the feasts.
What you do is something entirely different, you took on the pagan feasts of other God's.
While I cannot judge you in whether or not you keep all the laws of the Sabbaths and feasts doesn't even cover your conversion to the Sabbaths and feasts of another God.
In this thing, I will tell you that another religion doesn't concern me, what you do in your Babylonian religion doesn't concern me.
Everything written was written to converts of Judaism, I don't even know what to say when you have converted to a Babylonian religion, I suppose it is up to other Babylonians to judge whether or not you keep Christmas and Easter correctly or not, but what does it have to do with Jesus?
NOTHING.
But now, Christian Gentiles have persecuted the people who love and keep the commandments of God so long, that Christianity has turned the Jews into the suffering Messiah, anyone who loves and keeps God's commandments are persecuted and hated by the world BECAUSE they love and keep the commandments.
This is Paul speaking about how he is amongst the 7000 reserved in Israel, not Judah.
This is Paul EXPLAING to Gentiles that when they come repent for calling the Torah a strange thing, and they show remorse for their involvement with the worship system of pagan Gods, they can come repenting of doing it when they convert to Judaism, and then abandon all the ways of others Gods, THEN, there is no difference, EVEN THAT Gentile can become Israel and this is NOTHING NEW.
Salvation for All Nations
Isaiah 56 1Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
The Good Lord of Hosts doesn't make distinction of blood, BLESSED IS THE MAN WHO TAKES HOLD OF GOD'S WAYS TO DO WHAT PLEASE HIM, even the stranger and gentile who keep the Sabbaths and feasts of God and who love his Torah, even they will have an inheritance as Israel, as CO-HEIRS.
But what does this have to do with people who shun the Sabbaths and feasts of God?
What does this have to do with people who hate his laws and his worship system he created for his son?
NOTHING.
Those people whether Gentile or Jew who love and keep God's ways, THEY have become the suffering servant because Christianity DEMANDS their suffering and has put them to the stake.
Those people whether Gentile or Jew who love and keep God's ways, THEY have become the suffering servant because Christianity DEMANDS their suffering and has put them to the stake.
Interesting quote, if one ponders the reality of it.
Making empty assertions such as ''Philip had no clue'' doesn't help your argument and simply puts you in the position of having to explain how you think you know more about Jesus than one of His own apostles. Philip was an apostle of Jesus' and had been with Him throughout His public ministry.
And Jesus was absolutely referring to Himself when He said that Isaiah 53 must be fulfilled in Him. Philip understood that full well.
Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about Me has its fulfillment.”
There is no justification for claiming that Jesus wasn't referring to Himself when He said that what was wrote in Isaiah 53 must be fulfilled in Him. It's an extremely weak attempt to deny what the text says and simply does not hold up.
For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in Me (a Jew): ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about Me (Jews) has its fulfillment.
Numbered with the lawless, yet the Jew was not lawless?
So, he must have been falsely accused.
Isaiah 53 is a turning point in prophecy, as God shows the new covenant in proceeding chapters; we see scriptures like this - and boy is it an elephant in the room of contemporary theology!!!
“For this is like the waters of Noah to Me;
For as I have sworn
That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth,
So have I sworn (!)
That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you.
For the mountains shall depart
And the hills be removed,
But My kindness shall not depart from you,
Nor shall My covenant of peace be removed,”
Says the Lord, who has mercy on you.
And this:
No weapon formed against you shall prosper,
And every tongue which rises against you in judgment
You shall condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord,
And their righteousness is from Me,”
Says the Lord.
That's the terms of the new covenant, and it's all because of the events prophesied in chapter 53. No more yearly lambs brought to the temple - God has brought His Lamb.
For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in Me (a Jew): ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about Me (Jews) has its fulfillment.
Numbered with the lawless, yet the Jew was not lawless?
So, he must have been falsely accused.
What was written of Jesus alone was not written of the Jews in general. Jesus died for the sins of the world. The Jews did not. Jesus interceded on our behalf. The Jews did not. Isaiah 53 is about Jesus, not the Jews as a group.
Making empty assertions such as ''Philip had no clue'' doesn't help your argument and simply puts you in the position of having to explain how you think you know more about Jesus than one of His own apostles. Philip was an apostle of Jesus' and had been with Him throughout His public ministry.
And Jesus was absolutely referring to Himself when He said that Isaiah 53 must be fulfilled in Him. Philip understood that full well.
Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about Me has its fulfillment.”
There is no justification for claiming that Jesus wasn't referring to Himself when He said that what was wrote in Isaiah 53 must be fulfilled in Him. It's an extremely weak attempt to deny what the text says and simply does not hold up.
I notice you ignored the verses that say the son of man is the holy ones of the Most High.
Phillip may have been with Jesus but Jesus only reveals Himself to those who keep His commandments.
Remember the disciples didn't understand what Jesus was saying a lot of the time because He spoke in figures of speech.
I notice you ignored the verses that say the son of man is the holy ones of the Most High.
Phillip may have been with Jesus but Jesus only reveals Himself to those who keep His commandments.
Remember the disciples didn't understand what Jesus was saying a lot of the time because He spoke in figures of speech.
But you understand?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
