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As was plainly shown in the OP Jesus said that Isaiah 53 had to be fulfilled in Him. As well, the apostle Philip knew that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus. And it was shown that the suffering servant was an individual, not a group.
Isaiah 53 flat out states that the suffering servant bore the sin of many and that He died for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Does not a group consist of individuals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
To make a case that the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is a group you must demonstrate that the scriptures anywhere state that a group of people offered themselves as a guilt offering by which they bore the sin of many. You also must demonstrate that the apostle Philip was in error in saying that Isaiah 53 applied to Jesus and that Jesus Himself was in error by applying it to Himself. One individual is in view in Isaiah 53. Not a group.
God deals with us as a nation, people; collectively. He also deals with us individually, as a separate person.
And believe me, I have suffered at the hands of others.
More times, than I care to remember or desire to count.
The more people say - the less I believe what they say.
Especially, when it comes to their interpretations.
ya, but it might also be about people needing a scapegoat.
I think that's an understatement, as they continually support and promote it to the detriment of others.
Personally, I believe we should take responsibility for our own actions, and stop passing the buck.
I think that's an understatement, as they continually support and promote it to the detriment of others.
Personally, I believe we should take responsibility for our own actions, and stop passing the buck.
When you stand before God, you can claim your own righteousness. I will claim Jesus.
Scripture and the Father said; "Israel is my son, my firstborn, let my son go so he can serve me."
As you can see it is Israel who is the son and servant of God. Become the servant and you free your own sins.
"If the son frees you, you shall truly be free."
Not in Isaiah 53. Are you claiming that Jesus was wrong when He applied Isaiah 53 to Himself? Do you believe that Philip was wrong when he said that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus?
And how in Isaiah 53 can the suffering servant be Israel when the suffering servant is rendering Himself as a guilt offering for the transgression of the people (Israel) for whom the stroke was due? The suffering servant bore the sin of many (Israel) and interceded for the transgressors. Israel can not intercede for Israel.
As Messianic Jew Michael Brown says in 'Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus' vol. 3, p. 41,
The servant of the Lord (Hebrew, 'ebed') is mentioned a total of seventeen times in Isaiah 40-51, sometimes with reference to the nation Israel as a whole (41:8-9; twice in 42:19; 43:10; twice in 44:21; 45:4; 48:20), and sometimes with reference to a righteous individual within the nation (49:3, 5-7; 50:10). In several verses, it is not clear whether an individual or the nation (or a righteous remmant within the nation) is referred to, although a good case can be made for the individual interpretation (42:1; 44:1-2). Significantly, the most personal specific, individual language is found in Isaiah 52:13 and 53:11, roughly the beginning and the end of this glorious prophetic passage. Reviewing the data just presented, we can see something very important. The references to the servant as a people actually end with Isaiah 48:20, while the references to the servant as an individual come into indisputable focus beginning with Isaiah 49 and continuing through the end of chapter 53.
In some places the servant doe refer to a people, while in other places, the whole of chapter 53, the servant refers to an individual who intercede on behalf of the transgressors (Israel).
Once again, both Philip and Jesus said Isaiah 53 referred to Him. With that being the case, the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 cannot be referring to Israel.
This is the passage that Mike555 and jimmiej are referring to:
Acts 8:26-35 26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot." 30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this: "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth." 34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
This passage does make it extremely clear that Jesus is in view in Isaiah 53.
Yeah, All this was true in Jesus day, but Christianity has made ISRAEL BECOME the suffering servant, you think not?
Christianity set into killing anyone who loved and kept the commandments of God and anyone who was so brave to love the Torah, they become the suffering servant.
Christianity MADE the Jews, '' THE SUFFERING SERVANT.''
Is there some other servant out there who has bore the persecution of all the nations for 2000 years BECAUSE they wouldn't become an apostate against the God of heaven?
Is there some other people who were put into ovens because they refused to stop keeping the commandments of God that made them stick out as a sore thumb AS A SUFFERING SERVANT?
What are you murmuring on about?
You have room for absolute zero complaints.
Christians have normally taken sides for the Jews against all of their adversaries.
No matter if it was another jew who caused it all to happen that blamed all of the others.
Of course there are wonderful Jews, atheistic jews, and the money changers themselves, the devil sews.
Jews are not all evil or all good, some are, many are, just as their are good races, as there are bad parts as partnerships.
Meaning individuals are either capable of producing good works, or bad ones, evil tares they are called, collectors of stones.
The Lord Jesus Christ opened his arms up to all kinds of people, and simply put, he never denied a single opportunity to know of him.
When you cast a shadow of a doubt against all of Israel, meaning the church is included, just because the Hebrews called it grafting them in.
Not all of Israel is Israel, though it may try to make itself out to be, one's fruits is what matters, be it a Jew or a Gentile, half a scoundrel cannot enter inn.
Persecution of any people trying to live a normal life inside a society infested by 'ill works no evil', has always been there to be, as who lives for Christ suffers persecution.
They also who are not, and so what you are talking about is perhaps by the actions of a few, or at many, since if the congregation does not judge itself will find itself torn up within.
The unfair assessment of the church world for believing in a risen Christ, because Moses must remain at the forefront, that some never died, but lived to bury 'The Gospel of Jesus Christ is forever living'.
Carrying the commandments of God, the ark of the covenant, Christ died to fulfill it, the 10 commandments were meant to be the law man lived by, his neighbor included the breath of life is found in the wind.
Since Christians routinely bless Israel, because as a nation-state they have survived against all odds of surviving at all, your tempest against the church fails; if an inquisition was any better, it was because it was a civil way to amend.
The Roman party is over with, the papacy declined, good-bye for redacting the scriptures to make it seem there was never a Coptic church, or other written works of the Gospels, "The Gospel of the Holy Twelve", to bite do you get the first round.
Round Table of Arthur, Thor's chambers of the south centered east, western urn of cheats, politics has changed the Earth for a lesser god called goods manufactured out of animal parts; the evil done to animals so that their fur may be made into coats was found.
To be wanton evil, that to spare the flock, one bird may be left allowed to escape to tell all the others that to be delivered into such senseless torment at the hands of devils who took on the bodies of men to perform such evil sacrilege, that torture of an animal is fun to such hands.
The persecution of the animal world is the greatest of all sins to have been given a blind eye for how long, that the purpose of the church is to rescue from those Christ said live on his Earth to constantly stir a pot of fear, torment at its best, that to take the fur of an animal off while it is living, sands.
Rocks to pebbles, stones to rocks, that Jesus said that if man will do nothing but sit and do nothing, that the stones of the rapture still cry out, that Christ lived, died, was buried, resurrected the third day, that Paradise is a Kingdom, that animals are part of his church, the Lord recognizes who loves him, celebrates.
In 6 days God created all that was to exemplify itself a to be fruitful, multiply, the temple was given sticks to atone for itself, but instead got to take a rod of iron and beat a horse to death because someone inside of manna-less got to convince the world that horse round-ups were good for the land so cattle could replace wolves.
So the tribe of Benjamin the governments of the world got to persecute, sent hunters out, but God craves for his church again to be as it was right in the beginning when he said man was to eat green, or herb himself a plate of carrots, the Lamb of God was blameless, blame less, take responsibility, for your own self-insignificance torments.
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