Lord Jesus, are there few that be saved? (explanation, Gospel, hell)

Originally Posted by Rose2Luv

God's will is never trumped...never! No little will of little fallen man will ever trump the predetermined will of Almighty God!

Shiloh wants to know "Please quote where I said that God's will can be trumped?"

And states this A.M.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"No! Every individual will not believe, will not be saved, will not be raised to life. Some will remain lost! What the heck do you think we have been saying in this thread for nearly 600 posts."

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

Acts 2:23 He was handed over by God's set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross.

Keep repeating your own thoughts rather than the actual thoughts of the authors. It's ok it is obvious you have nothing of substance.

Originally Posted by Rose2Luv

Let's cut to the chase Shiloh. Tell us if God the Saviour of all mankind simply "desires" all mankind to be saved, or "willeth/wills" all mankind to be saved? A yes or no will be sufficient.>>>>>>>>

Yes

No

The fact that you have to ask this question of me shows that you have not been paying attention. I not only answered it a big FAT YES i demonstrated why which is more than you clowns can do. I spent about a 100 post on this verse. Go and avail yourself of them!

Originally Posted by pneuma

Already did. Gave you scripture and told you why I believed them after the fashion I do. You responded by giving me the reasons why you don't see it the same way I do.and that is fine. What is not fine is saying because I see those scripture different from you I have a brain proplem and need my head operated on.

That total arrogance . If someone disagrees with your take their idiot.

Kosmos speaks of everything in the universe not just somethings in the universe. Thus when scripture state Jesus is the savior of the Kosmos it is stating he is the saviour of ALL.

And your reasons had nothing to do with context or grammar just your dumb line of reasoning about an irrelevant topic of whether the texts are illogical and then showing yourself to be illogical while accusing me of it. Brilliant line of reasoning that has nothing to do with whether the texts says what it says. That is why is said there was something wrong with your brain. The whole reason you are on this dumb trip is that you don't have anything else to spew out. And I dealt with the word cosmos! Jesus is the saviour of all types of people not just the Jews and their prejudice against many groups of people - if you don't have enough sense to see this in certain contexts there is no help for you. I showed you many of those context and you did not and can not refute it - you just deny it and repeat the same things as if posting a verse actually does something.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

You have been disabused of your ignorance with the actual texts of the Bible. Your decision that God's desires must always comes to pass is not true.

I ask where in the bible it says that God's desires all to have faith or that he make sinners believe NOT what you quoted. Show us where it went out of the mouth of God? Don't bother - you can't!

Then you are saying God is a day dreamer. You do know the scripture says with God all things are possible?. Why in your mind would God fail to do the seemingly impossible when it comes to his desire, will and ableness to save all. It's as if God is saying "I can do anything but you know what these sinners and their wills are tough bunch to crack, i can't force them to believe, so i will just stand by and watch them choose blindly their own fete", because that is what you are saying, and that is what you are building your argument upon no matter how you are tellling yourself that you are not. Your mind is already made.

The scriptures that God desires all to be saved have been provided to you.

[Rose2Luv]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

The fact that you have to ask this question of me shows that you have not been paying attention. I not only answered it a big FAT YES i demonstrated why which is more than you clowns can do. I spent about a 100 post on this verse. Go and avail yourself of them!

Make Rose understand. You are saying that our Father's plan is His sovereign plan, not simply His desire? Why then did you just post to one of the "other clowns" (Pcamps) the following?......

"You have been disabused of your ignorance with the actual texts of the Bible. Your decision that God's desires must always comes to pass is not true."

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Mike555

No, that is what Daniel Wallace, whose intermediate Greek Grammar, 'Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics' is a standard text book in Greek language courses, is saying.

Potential Indicative

a. Definition

The indicative is used with verbs of obligation, wish, or desire, followed by an infinitive. The nature of the verb root, rather than the indicative, is what makes it look like a potential mood in its semantic force. This usage is fairly common.

Specifically, verbs indicating obligation (such as ὸΦειλω δει), wish (e.g., βούλομαι), or desire (e.g., θέλω) are used with an infinitive. They lexically limit the overall assertion, turning it into a potential action. It is important to understand that the normal force of the indicative mood is not thereby denied; rather, the assertion is simply in the desire, not the doing. Thus, this usage is really a subcategory of the declarative indicative.

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Wallace, p. 451

The indicative mood is the mood of reality. It is a reality that God desires all men to be saved. But the action that would result from the desire is only a potential. Man must respond to the gospel with positive volition in order to be saved. This fact is stated repeatedly in the New Testament.

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Acts 15:11
But we believe (Present, Indicative, Active) that we will be saved (Aorist, Infinitive, Passive) through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.

Is this any different than that of God desires or does it relate to that of a future event? And I do realize that it is a matter of faith, ... but, what are your thoughts on this - is your faith greater than his desire? Or, could it be that you haven't the faith to see all humanity coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Originally Posted by Mike555

God's desire that all men be saved (1 Tim 2:4) does not override the necessity for a person to believe in Christ in order to be saved. In Acts 15:11 Peter expressed his confidence that we are saved by the grace of God. But not apart from personal faith in Christ. Peter, in answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31 said that you must believe in Christ in order to be saved.

God requires from us a positive faith response to the gospel before He credits the righteousness of Christ to us by which we are qualified to enter into an eternal relationship with Him. Romans chapters 3-5 addresses the issue of justification.

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Nowhere does it say to believe in Christ, nor that your life is eternal.
But that is not what I was asking! Is your faith greater than His desire?

Peter used the AORIST/INFINITIVE mood TO BE SAVED.

Originally Posted by Mike555

The aorist mood, once again, is simply the mood of reality. When something is presented in the aorist mood it is being presented as a true statement. In Act 15:11 Peter made a true statement that he believed that we are saved by the grace of God. But again, not apart from first believing in Christ. That you must believe in Christ in order to be saved is stated a number of times. Acts 16:31 which I mentioned is but one such place where this is stated. And God gives eternal life to those who believe.

God's desire that all men be saved does not override the need for man to first express faith toward Christ.

Apparently, you have a contradiction when it comes to reality. Is it the indicative or the aorist? As the indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. And the aorist is said to be a simple occurrence or summary occurrence without regard for the amount of time it takes to accomplish the action. But I will ask again, is your faith greater than his desire? From what I can see his desire (want, will) to have all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth - it is an active and ongoing action. Whereas, your point of view is that it's up to the believer's own faculty or power to believe and to be saved in the here, and now. Although I do not have a problem with having faith in this present age. But I highly doubt anyone would or will reject him - when in HIS PRESENCE.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Your argument is that if all men aren't saved then God is a failure. This completely overlooks the fact that God's plan requires that man must choose for or against Christ. And the Bible shows that not all men are going to choose for Christ.

According to the text of Revelation, even when Jesus returns and is physically on the earth and ruling from the throne of David during the Millennial kingdom, multitudes of people are going to reject Him as shown by the fact that at the end of the Millennial kingdom (the restitution of all things) Satan will be temporarily released from the pit and incite open rebellion against Jesus' rule. Those who rebel will be devoured by fire from heaven. Then the great white throne judgment will be held and all whose names are not in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will remain forever.

What a bunch of nonsense.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Apparently, you have a contradiction when it comes to reality. Is it the indicative or the aorist? As the indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. And the aorist is said to be a simple occurrence or summary occurrence without regard for the amount of time it takes to accomplish the action. But I will ask again, is your faith greater than his desire? From what I can see his desire (want, will) to have all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth - it is an active and ongoing action. Whereas, your point of view is that it's up to the believer's own faculty or power to believe and to be saved in the here, and now. Although I do not have a problem with having faith in this present age. I highly doubt anyone would or will reject him - when in HIS PRESENCE.

Ooops, I did say aorist didn't I. Yes, it's the indicative mood that is the mood of reality as I said back in post #511. Of course you automatically make a case out it and accuse me of having ''a contradiction with reality'' instead of assuming that I simply accidentally put aorist instead of indicative. But that's the way you are.

And it is not an issue of whether our faith is greater than God's desire. The issue is that God requires that we have faith in Christ in order to be saved. Since God gave man volition that means that God's sovereignty co-exists with human volition. And God will not override man's volition to save man against man's will.

Post #511

No, that is what Daniel Wallace, whose intermediate Greek Grammar, 'Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics' is a standard text book in Greek language courses, is saying.

Potential Indicative

a. Definition

The indicative is used with verbs of obligation, wish, or desire, followed by an infinitive. The nature of the verb root, rather than the indicative, is what makes it look like a potential mood in its semantic force. This usage is fairly common.

Specifically, verbs indicating obligation (such as ὸΦειλω δει), wish (e.g., βούλομαι), or desire (e.g., θέλω) are used with an infinitive. They lexically limit the overall assertion, turning it into a potential action. It is important to understand that the normal force of the indicative mood is not thereby denied; rather, the assertion is simply in the desire, not the doing. Thus, this usage is really a subcategory of the declarative indicative.

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Wallace, p. 451

The indicative mood is the mood of reality. It is a reality that God desires all men to be saved. But the action that would result from the desire is only a potential. Man must respond to the gospel with positive volition in order to be saved. This fact is stated repeatedly in the New Testament.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

What a bunch of nonsense.

I believe the Biblical writers. You don't.

Originally Posted by Rose2Luv

Surely by now Pneuma, you must surely realize our God is a potential] Saviour. Yup, the only thing standing in the way is our big wills.

Yeap! The only thing standing in the way is the unbelieving and unrepentant mind of a sinner.

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourselves in the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment is revealed! He will reward each one according to his works: eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness. There will be affliction and distress on everyone who does evil, on the Jew first and also the Greek...

Here we see a few things that have been discussed in detail on this thread.

1) What stands in the way of those receiving salvation - unbelief.

2) That their refusal to repent and believe is storing up wrath for them when God does decide to judge the ungodly.

3) There will be a judgement of the ungodly that have not repented or believed - thus all will not be saved.

4) That Paul uses corporate language in his argument in Romans and elsewhere for that matter when he speaks of group/kinds/types of people - here it is Jew and Gentiles. This is important when reading statements about all peoples or the whole world. It is everywhere in John and Romans.

5) The use of the word aphtharsia (immortality/imperishable properly, no-corruption unable to experience deterioration; incorruptibility, not perishable, i.e. lacking the very capacity to decay or constitutionally break down.) with the word aionian must mean eternal life as also demonstrated elsewhere in Daniel 12:2 in the LXX.

These few verses speaks volumes against UR.

Here is more:

They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you.

Here Paul is talking corporately again about the nation of Israel as corporate entity in God's plan. According to UR he must mean all and every Israelites, but Paul teaches against that in this chapter. It goes on to talking about a remnant chosen because they had faith. It then says that God will deal with Israel later as a whole entity but in the mean time, as Paul noted, individual Israelites have come to faith - he being one of them. Again, corporate view between Jews and the other nations.

How about here:

See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has an evil, unbelieving heart that forsakes the living God. But exhort one another each day, as long as it is called “Today,” that none of you may become hardened by sin’s deception. For we have become partners with Christ, if in fact we hold our initial confidence firm until the end. As it says, “Oh, that today you would listen as he speaks! Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For which ones heard and rebelled? Was it not all who came out of Egypt under Moses’ leadership? And against whom was God provoked for forty years? Was it not those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear they would never enter into his rest, except those who were disobedient? So we see that they could not enter because of unbelief.

Here we also see corporate language about Israel - the writer's brothers and sisters. He again reminds them that Today is the day of salvation as long as it is called Today for there will be one day when that offer is no more. Was it every individual that rebelled in Moses time? No there were some that did not - Joshua and Caleb and the little ones - so 'all' here cannot mean every individual - it's corporate language about the majority. Just as there was a remnant in the time of Elijah and Paul so too in the time of Moses - God deals with his people as such. That's why the Church is also called the body of Christ and why Paul uses the phrase those IN CHRIST as opposed to THOSE IN ADAM. Unbelief and sin is what prevents the potential for salvation. This rebellion is example to the individual in regard to the message of the gospel. If you are not in Christ you are still and will be still in Adam when judgment comes. All who are in Adam die but all who are IN CHRIST will be made alive - but not everyone will be in Christ.

Therefore we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken through angels proved to be so firm that every violation or disobedience received its just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?

It's a rhetorical question Rose - they won't escape if there don't have faith and are found in Christ.

It is so clear and everywhere and demonstrated through proper context and grammar not ripping verses out of context and using them as pretext for your ignorance.