Lord Jesus, are there few that be saved? (Gospel, believe, scripture)
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Ooops, I did say aorist didn't I. Yes, it's the indicative mood that is the mood of reality as I said back in post #511. Of course you automatically make a case out it and accuse me of having ''a contradiction with reality'' instead of assuming that I simply accidentally put aorist instead of indicative. But that's the way you are.
And it is not an issue of whether our faith is greater than God's desire. The issue is that God requires that we have faith in Christ in order to be saved. Since God gave man volition that means that God's sovereignty co-exists with human volition. And God will not override man's volition to save man against man's will.
Post #511
No, that is what Daniel Wallace, whose intermediate Greek Grammar, 'Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics' is a standard text book in Greek language courses, is saying.
Potential Indicative
a. Definition
The indicative is used with verbs of obligation, wish, or desire, followed by an infinitive. The nature of the verb root, rather than the indicative, is what makes it look like a potential mood in its semantic force. This usage is fairly common.
Specifically, verbs indicating obligation (such as ὸΦειλω δει), wish (e.g., βούλομαι), or desire (e.g., θέλω) are used with an infinitive. They lexically limit the overall assertion, turning it into a potential action. It is important to understand that the normal force of the indicative mood is not thereby denied; rather, the assertion is simply in the desire, not the doing. Thus, this usage is really a subcategory of the declarative indicative.
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Wallace, p. 451
The indicative mood is the mood of reality. It is a reality that God desires all men to be saved. But the action that would result from the desire is only a potential. Man must respond to the gospel with positive volition in order to be saved. This fact is stated repeatedly in the New Testament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
No, I am not making a case out of it, but I would like to know what the difference is between Acts 15:11 and that of 1 Timothy 2:4, do not both relate to the indicative or aorist moods? Because it almost sounds as if you are saying that your believing to be saved is greater than his desire, otherwise it is merely a potential?
Both Acts 15:11 and 1 Tim. 2:4 have the present indicative with the aorist infinitive.
Acts 15:11 we believe (present indicative); to be saved (aorist infinitive).
1 Tim. 2:4 desires (present indicative); to be saved (aorist infinitive).
Both are expressing potential action. Peter states that ''we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.'' But he qualifies that statement by stating in verse 7 the need to hear the gospel and believe. Peter is not saying that we are saved by grace alone, but by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
In 1 Tim. 2:4 God is simply expressing His desire that all men be saved. His desire is a reality, but the action that is based on the desire is only potential. As Peter said, one must hear the gospel and believe in order to be saved.
As I previously said, God requires that we have faith in Christ in order to be saved. Since God gave man volition that means that God's sovereignty co-exists with human volition. And God will not override man's volition to save man against man's will.
As John, or Jesus, said in John 3:16, due to the way John wrote, it's not really certain whether Jesus or John was making the statement, those who believe in Christ have eternal life. But those who don't believe, will perish.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
God intends to bring into glory all who have accepted His offer of salvation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus, and to leave under condemnation all who have rejected His offer. The choice in time for man is to choose for God or to choose to remain in rebellion against Him and share the same fate as Satan and his angels, which is to be sentenced to the lake of fire as per Matthew 25:41,46; Revelation 20:11-15.
In 1 Tim. 2:4 God is simply expressing His desire that all men be saved. His desire is a reality, but the action that is based on the desire is only potential.
Want/wish/desire
They are often used in place of one another. They both largely means “want.” You may wish for something, however, unless and until you desire it, you will not get it. ... Wishing for something may not have the same compelling intensity as the desire may have.
Who Willeth=
Willeth (qelei)
"Who willeth all mankind to be saved"
"Who is constantly willing (continuously intending) all mankind (all men) to be saved (delivered; rescued; made healthy and whole), and (even) to come into a full, accurate, experiential and intimate knowledge of Truth (or: into a realization of [the] Truth),
for God [is] One, and One [is the] Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus (or: for [there is] one God, and one medium between God and men. [the] human, Christ Jesus),
the One giving Himself a correspondent ransom (a ransom in the place of and directed toward the situation) over (for) all (everyone; as a masc.: all men; as a nuet: all things) - the witness (testimony; omitted by A) [will come] in its own fitting situations" -Jonathan Mitchell Translation-
God intends to bring into glory all who have accepted His offer of salvation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus, and to leave under condemnation all who have rejected His offer. The choice in time for man is to choose for God or to choose to remain in rebellion against Him and share the same fate as Satan and his angels, which is to be sentenced to the lake of fire as per Matthew 25:41,46; Revelation 20:11-15.
Does that include the 15000 children under age 5 who died today worldwide? Your pal Shiloh indicates he could not care less. How about you Mike?
Correction:
Shiloh said "I did not say I did not care about kids dying. That is irrelevant to the point of what Paul and John are saying."
Does that include the 15000 children under age 5 who died today worldwide? Your pal Shiloh indicates he could not care less. How about you Mike?
I've mentioned a number of times on this forum that I believe in a so called age of accountability. That anyone who is incapable of making a faith decision is automatically saved. But once a person is able to comprehend the existence of God he is held responsible for what he does with that. If at the point of God consciousness he desires to understand God then he will have the opportunity to hear the gospel message about Jesus at which point he must either believe the gospel or reject it.
Since you are a newbie to the Christianity forum you wouldn't know that.
And how tiny of you to try to make it about me. The issue is what the Bible says, and the Bible makes it clear that all men will not be saved.
No, I am not making a case out of it, but I would like to know what the difference is between Acts 15:11 and that of 1 Timothy 2:4, do not both relate to the indicative or aorist moods? Because it almost sounds as if you are saying that your believing to be saved is greater than his desire, otherwise it is merely a potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1
There is a basic definition for the infinitive and there is addition nuances depending on the grammar and syntax, why is this so hard. In Acts that additional information does not grant a potential but one of either an infinitive of Result or Means. This is about the semantic range based upon the grammar in the text. This is seen by the following prepositional phrase - 'in the same manner.'
He believes that they are saved in the same manner as them. But I'll let Mike answer as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
If he desires them to be saved in like manner, then ALL will come to that knowledge sooner or later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1
The manner in which he desires is BY FAITH! Not all will have faith. In Acts Peter is stating that he believes that this is how the Gentiles will be saved as well - in the same manner.
Faith is not believing, it's knowing or having the knowledge to understand and comprehend that the foundation of faith itself is built upon unconditional love. However, I do realize that you, along with the extreme fundamentalists herein have erected or desire to build a wall of perdition to prevent others from entering. Thus, setting up various boundaries and limitations to his atonement and Grace for ALL PEOPLE because you believe that there will always be sinful and unpenitent people, even after death.
Ooops, I did say aorist didn't I. Yes, it's the indicative mood that is the mood of reality as I said back in post #511. Of course you automatically make a case out it and accuse me of having ''a contradiction with reality'' instead of assuming that I simply accidentally put aorist instead of indicative. But that's the way you are.
And it is not an issue of whether our faith is greater than God's desire. The issue is that God requires that we have faith in Christ in order to be saved. Since God gave man volition that means that God's sovereignty co-exists with human volition. And God will not override man's volition to save man against man's will.
Post #511
No, that is what Daniel Wallace, whose intermediate Greek Grammar, 'Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics' is a standard text book in Greek language courses, is saying.
Potential Indicative
a. Definition
The indicative is used with verbs of obligation, wish, or desire, followed by an infinitive. The nature of the verb root, rather than the indicative, is what makes it look like a potential mood in its semantic force. This usage is fairly common.
Specifically, verbs indicating obligation (such as ὸΦειλω δει), wish (e.g., βούλομαι), or desire (e.g., θέλω) are used with an infinitive. They lexically limit the overall assertion, turning it into a potential action. It is important to understand that the normal force of the indicative mood is not thereby denied; rather, the assertion is simply in the desire, not the doing. Thus, this usage is really a subcategory of the declarative indicative.
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Wallace, p. 451
The indicative mood is the mood of reality. It is a reality that God desires all men to be saved. But the action that would result from the desire is only a potential. Man must respond to the gospel with positive volition in order to be saved. This fact is stated repeatedly in the New Testament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
No, I am not making a case out of it, but I would like to know what the difference is between Acts 15:11 and that of 1 Timothy 2:4, do not both relate to the indicative or aorist moods? Because it almost sounds as if you are saying that your believing to be saved is greater than his desire, otherwise it is merely a potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Both Acts 15:11 and 1 Tim. 2:4 have the present indicative with the aorist infinitive.
Acts 15:11 we believe (present indicative); to be saved (aorist infinitive).
1 Tim. 2:4 desires (present indicative); to be saved (aorist infinitive).
Both are expressing potential action. Peter states that ''we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.'' But he qualifies that statement by stating in verse 7 the need to hear the gospel and believe. Peter is not saying that we are saved by grace alone, but by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
In 1 Tim. 2:4 God is simply expressing His desire that all men be saved. His desire is a reality, but the action that is based on the desire is only potential. As Peter said, one must hear the gospel and believe in order to be saved.
As I previously said, God requires that we have faith in Christ in order to be saved. Since God gave man volition that means that God's sovereignty co-exists with human volition. And God will not override man's volition to save man against man's will.
As John, or Jesus, said in John 3:16, due to the way John wrote, it's not really certain whether Jesus or John was making the statement, those who believe in Christ have eternal life. But those who don't believe, will perish.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
God intends to bring into glory all who have accepted His offer of salvation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus, and to leave under condemnation all who have rejected His offer. The choice in time for man is to choose for God or to choose to remain in rebellion against Him and share the same fate as Satan and his angels, which is to be sentenced to the lake of fire as per Matthew 25:41,46; Revelation 20:11-15.
He intends to save ALL PEOPLE bringing them to the full knowledge of the truth in due time.
But it looks like only a few in this life will come to understand and comprehend his intention.
I've mentioned a number of times on this forum that I believe in a so called age of accountability. That anyone who is incapable of making a faith decision is automatically saved. But once a person is able to comprehend the existence of God he is held responsible for what he does with that. If at the point of God consciousness he desires to understand God then he will have the opportunity to hear the gospel message about Jesus at which point he must either believe the gospel or reject it.
Since you are a newbie to the Christianity forum you wouldn't know that.
And how tiny of you to try to make it about me. The issue is what the Bible says, and the Bible makes it clear that all men will not be saved.
All must have faith and believe except......good grief.
What about those who the God of this world has blinded Mike. ? After all it is not ther fault they have been blind. Do they get a free pass also.
Faith is not believing, it's knowing or having the knowledge to understand and comprehend that the foundation of faith itself is built upon unconditional love. However, I do realize that you, along with the extreme fundamentalists herein have erected or desire to build a wall of perdition to prevent others from entering. Thus, setting up various boundaries and limitations to his atonement and Grace for ALL PEOPLE because you believe that there will always be sinful and unpenitent people, even after death.
It's the reward and punishment theology, but you have to be old enough to participate.
Ya but that don't even work on dogs.
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