Question About Heaven (preach, belief, Jesus, Bible)
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Do you believe yourself to be a Christian? If so, what do you base that belief on if not the scriptures? If you're not a Christian, then I don't understand your need to be here to insult people. Discuss things, sure. But to insult? That tells me a lot about your motive because folks don't tend to hang out in places they don't agree with or believe in.
Also, what do you expect Christians to base their beliefs on, if not the Bible, which is God's own words? That hardly seems strange. That's like telling a construction crew that builds houses on foundations that they need a crutch. What is it about God and His Word that makes you feel so threatened? It seems to me that your issue is with God Himself, not those who follow Him.
No, I am no longer a Christian. This is a forum to discuss Christianity, not a private club for Christians.
I am not the least threatened by your god and its "word." Why would the primitive guesses and mythological tales of long-dead anonymous men be threatening to me?
My issue is not with your god-thing. My issue is with fundies who believe the bible is inerrant and use it to bludgeon those Others of whom they disapprove.
What do you base this opinion on because that's not what God says in His Word. So, if God Himself says that not everyone will go to heaven (as well as saying that the duration of heaven and hell are both "eternal," which means never ending), then what god are you believing in because it's not the God of the Bible who created not only people, but heaven and hell.
If you had posted this in the New Age, or some other forum, I wouldn't even bother replying but, since it's listed in Christianity, which is grounded in the scriptures alone, then I'm curious what this erroneous belief is rooted in.
I could list many scriptures that factually (and biblically, in context) deal with who goes to heaven and hell. It doesn't take a theologian to understand them. But, here's just one. Jesus's own words in Matthew 7.
Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"
These, in my opinion, are the most horrifying words in all of scripture because they warn that so, so many people who profess "Christians" and are expecting entrance into heaven, are going to be in for the shock of their lives to learn differently. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian actually is one. Christianity is defined by no person. Only God and He says who they are in His Word.
In fact, God says that fewer folks will go to heaven than those who end up in hell. (Also found in more than one place in the scriptures.)
Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
And those who try to get into heaven by any other means than the way that God has mandated are thieves and robbers. (Read Matthew 10, also Jesus's own words.)
What makes you think the "kingdom/reign of heaven" is something your or anyone else is waiting to enter into after physical life ends? The passage you quoted about the narrow and wide gates doesn't say the way leads to heaven after you physically die. It says it leads to life (as opposed to being a dead man walking, which is "hell"). Are you experiencing life now? If not, why not? The reign of heaven in you produces godliness, peace and joy. You don't need to wait for your physical death in order to experience that.
Ps. The original language of the bible at no point says anything other than God is "eternal" (aidios). It does talk about things lasting for various "ages" (aionios) of various lengths.
No, I am no longer a Christian. This is a forum to discuss Christianity, not a private club for Christians.
I am not the least threatened by your god and its "word." Why would the primitive guesses and mythological tales of long-dead anonymous men be threatening to me?
My issue is not with your god-thing. My issue is with fundies who believe the bible is inerrant and use it to bludgeon those Others of whom they disapprove.
I didn't say this was private club for Christians. That's just you putting words in my mouth to try to boost your own opinions. By your own words, you said that this is a place for discussion. But the only thing I've seen from you is mocking and insults. That's not discussion, thus it's not what this forum is for either.
You said you're "no longer a Christian." As a point of biblical fact, God says, "You were never a Christian to begin with."
1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
This Scripture makes it abundantly clear - there's no such thing as an ex-Christian. In fact, it backs up my previous post stating that fewer people will end up in heaven than hell. Why? Because it says that those who truly belong to Jesus in this life, remain in Him in this life, and are the ones who will remain with Him for eternity.
It also backs up what I said earlier: The Bible says that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian actually is one. And it explains how you are proof of that.
I wish you the best, TroutDude. I really do. But the best is Jesus. And I won't debate with you because Christians aren't called to debate God, but to proclaim Him. And, if you're being honest, you're not really interested in "discussions." You want to debate and mock. Nothing you have said has been factual or accompanied by sources other than your own emotions and opinions. That's fair enough, but you speak as though opinions and emotions are facts. They are not. And they expose your real motive.
In such a case, God says to shake the dust from your feet (in Matthew, Mark, Luke and Acts) and move on. And I don't care to disobey Matthew 7:6.
Matthew 7 appears to be a theme. Perhaps you might want to re-read it. I hope you will. I hope you will experience Jesus in this life before you experience Him in the next one. To experience Him in this lifetime is far greater, and more glorious, than anything you could possibly dream of.
I didn't say this was private club for Christians. That's just you putting words in my mouth to try to boost your own opinions. By your own words, you said that this is a place for discussion. But the only thing I've seen from you is mocking and insults. That's not discussion, thus it's not what this forum is for either.
You said you're "no longer a Christian." As a point of biblical fact, God says, "You were never a Christian to begin with."
1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
This Scripture makes it abundantly clear - there's no such thing as an ex-Christian. In fact, it backs up my previous post stating that fewer people will end up in heaven than hell. Why? Because it says that those who truly belong to Jesus in this life, remain in Him in this life, and are the ones who will remain with Him for eternity.
It also backs up what I said earlier: The Bible says that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian actually is one. And it explains how you are proof of that.
God didn't say that; the author of 1 John did. And he didn't say "Christian", he said "us". No one in the bible referred to themselves as a Christian, and only the author of 1 Peter and an "unbeliever" used the term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Ryter
I wish you the best, TroutDude. I really do. But the best is Jesus. And I won't debate with you because Christians aren't called to debate God, but to proclaim Him. And, if you're being honest, you're not really interested in "discussions." You want to debate and mock. Nothing you have said has been factual or accompanied by sources other than your own emotions and opinions. That's fair enough, but you speak as though opinions and emotions are facts. They are not. And they expose your real motive.
In such a case, God says to shake the dust from your feet (in Matthew, Mark, Luke and Acts) and move on. And I don't care to disobey Matthew 7:6.
Matthew 7 appears to be a theme. Perhaps you might want to re-read it. I hope you will. I hope you will experience Jesus in this life before you experience Him in the next one. To experience Him in this lifetime is far greater, and more glorious, than anything you could possibly dream of.
Nothing you're saying is factual, either. That includes what appears to be your opinion that the bible is factual? But, I would love to hear what you mean by "proclaiming God". Do you equate that to calling Jesus "the best" and telling Trout you wanted to shake the dust from your feet and move on from him?
What makes you think the "kingdom/reign of heaven" is something your or anyone else is waiting to enter into after physical life ends? The passage you quoted about the narrow and wide gates doesn't say the way leads to heaven after you physically die. It says it leads to life (as opposed to being a dead man walking, which is "hell"). Are you experiencing life now? If not, why not? The reign of heaven in you produces godliness, peace and joy. You don't need to wait for your physical death in order to experience that.
Ps. The original language of the bible at no point says anything other than God is "eternal" (aidios). It does talk about things lasting for various "ages" (aionios) of various lengths.
It's true. Luke 17:21 tells us that "the kingdom of God is within you." However, I responded in context with the subject of this thread - heaven. And while there is greater depth to those scriptures, they also apply to heaven and who goes there. One post cannot possibly expound the full depth and meaning of any scripture. It will take all of eternity to do that.
P.S. You're wrong about the original language. Yes, God is eternal. But it declares so much more, including eternal life; but, I don't want to derail the thread.
It's true. Luke 17:21 tells us that "the kingdom of God is within you." However, I responded in context with the subject of this thread - heaven. And while there is greater depth to those scriptures, they also apply to heaven and who goes there. One post cannot possibly expound the full depth and meaning of any scripture. It will take all of eternity to do that.
P.S. You're wrong about the original language. Yes, God is eternal. But it declares so much more, including eternal life; but, I don't want to derail the thread.
No, the word (aionios) that some biblical translations render as "eternal" does not mean "eternal". It refers to an "age", the length of which is indeterminate although sometimes indicated by the context. Only the word aidios which refers to God actually means "eternal".
And it is only your inferred opinion -- based on what you read into the bible based on your beliefs -- that concludes those passages are speaking of going to a "place" after you die rather than to a state of mind/spirit.
I didn't say this was private club for Christians. That's just you putting words in my mouth to try to boost your own opinions. By your own words, you said that this is a place for discussion. But the only thing I've seen from you is mocking and insults. That's not discussion, thus it's not what this forum is for either.
You said you're "no longer a Christian." As a point of biblical fact, God says, "You were never a Christian to begin with."
Yeah, I've heard that song a time or two. It, like much of what is found in the bible, is wrong.
1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
This Scripture makes it abundantly clear - there's no such thing as an ex-Christian. In fact, it backs up my previous post stating that fewer people will end up in heaven than hell. Why? Because it says that those who truly belong to Jesus in this life, remain in Him in this life, and are the ones who will remain with Him for eternity.
It also backs up what I said earlier: The Bible says that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian actually is one. And it explains how you are proof of that.
Yeah, I've heard that song a time or two. It, like much of what is found in the bible, is wrong.
Quote:
I wish you the best, TroutDude. I really do. But the best is Jesus. And I won't debate with you because Christians aren't called to debate God, but to proclaim Him. And, if you're being honest, you're not really interested in "discussions." You want to debate and mock. Nothing you have said has been factual or accompanied by sources other than your own emotions and opinions. That's fair enough, but you speak as though opinions and emotions are facts. They are not. And they expose your real motive.
In such a case, God says to shake the dust from your feet (in Matthew, Mark, Luke and Acts) and move on. And I don't care to disobey Matthew 7:6.
Matthew 7 appears to be a theme. Perhaps you might want to re-read it. I hope you will. I hope you will experience Jesus in this life before you experience Him in the next one. To experience Him in this lifetime is far greater, and more glorious, than anything you could possibly dream of.
Your grade-school psychology is at the same primitive level as your theology. I hope one day you experience true spiritual growth.
It's true. Luke 17:21 tells us that "the kingdom of God is within you." However, I responded in context with the subject of this thread - heaven..................
I am wondering who is the "you" mentioned at Luke 17:20-21 is ____________
My understanding is that in verse 20 Jesus is addressing or talking to those hate-filled 'Pharisees'.
So, why would people think God's kingdom would be within those enemies of Jesus ?
What I see inside of them is found in Jesus' words at Mark 7:20-23.
I read that it is Not until Luke 17:22 that Jesus then addresses his disciples, after he concludes with the Pharisees.
Jesus continues with his followers at Luke 19:11-15 that God's kingdom would Not immediately or instantly appear.
In other words, Not appear in the first century time frame. First the apostasy would set in as per Acts 20:29-30.
So, it is in No way God's kingdom was within those Pharisees nor disciples, but Jesus was within their midst among them.
Do you believe yourself to be a Christian? If so, what do you base that belief on if not the scriptures? If you're not a Christian, then I don't understand your need to be here to insult people. Discuss things, sure. But to insult? That tells me a lot about your motive because folks don't tend to hang out in places they don't agree with or believe in.
Also, what do you expect Christians to base their beliefs on, if not the Bible, which is God's own words? That hardly seems strange. That's like telling a construction crew that builds houses on foundations that they need a crutch. What is it about God and His Word that makes you feel so threatened? It seems to me that your issue is with God Himself, not those who follow Him.
Mr. E, troutdude is a cyber-bully. He is here to bash and degrade anyone who is a traditional Christian. He can get quite nasty. The mods do little to curtail him. I urge you to ignore him.
I didn't say this was private club for Christians. That's just you putting words in my mouth to try to boost your own opinions. By your own words, you said that this is a place for discussion. But the only thing I've seen from you is mocking and insults. That's not discussion, thus it's not what this forum is for either.
You said you're "no longer a Christian." As a point of biblical fact, God says, "You were never a Christian to begin with."
1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
This Scripture makes it abundantly clear - there's no such thing as an ex-Christian. In fact, it backs up my previous post stating that fewer people will end up in heaven than hell. Why? Because it says that those who truly belong to Jesus in this life, remain in Him in this life, and are the ones who will remain with Him for eternity.
It also backs up what I said earlier: The Bible says that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian actually is one. And it explains how you are proof of that.
I wish you the best, TroutDude. I really do. But the best is Jesus. And I won't debate with you because Christians aren't called to debate God, but to proclaim Him. And, if you're being honest, you're not really interested in "discussions." You want to debate and mock. Nothing you have said has been factual or accompanied by sources other than your own emotions and opinions. That's fair enough, but you speak as though opinions and emotions are facts. They are not. And they expose your real motive.
In such a case, God says to shake the dust from your feet (in Matthew, Mark, Luke and Acts) and move on. And I don't care to disobey Matthew 7:6.
Matthew 7 appears to be a theme. Perhaps you might want to re-read it. I hope you will. I hope you will experience Jesus in this life before you experience Him in the next one. To experience Him in this lifetime is far greater, and more glorious, than anything you could possibly dream of.
Perfection in logic and grace/ brother in our Lord! very good post.. and so true! ....
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