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From Popes in funny hats, to mega-million-dollar churches, to the prosperity gospel, to the endless internal fussing and feuding over fine points of theology, to the endless scandals, to the difficulty in distinguishing how Christians are really any different from their secular (or Hindu or Buddhist) brethren, it's impossible for me not to think something has gone drastically awry. Christianity as it exists today and has existed at least since the time of Constantine cannot possibly bear any resemblance to anything Jesus was talking about.
To an atheist, all of this means Christianity isn't true. But this isn't an acceptable answer to those of us who have reached reasoned convictions that it is true, and who have experienced the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in our own lives.
Although I use the term Christian myself as a convenient shorthand, I've come to believe that being "a follower of Jesus" and being "a Christian" are two entirely different, almost mutually exclusive things. If the Holy Spirit were real and were actually at work throughout Christianity, the Good News couldn't possibly look like this.
From Popes in funny hats, to mega-million-dollar churches, to the prosperity gospel, to the endless internal fussing and feuding over fine points of theology, to the endless scandals, to the difficulty in distinguishing how Christians are really any different from their secular (or Hindu or Buddhist) brethren, it's impossible for me not to think something has gone drastically awry. Christianity as it exists today and has existed at least since the time of Constantine cannot possibly bear any resemblance to anything Jesus was talking about.
To an atheist, all of this means Christianity isn't true. But this isn't an acceptable answer to those of us who have reached reasoned convictions that it is true, and who have experienced the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in our own lives.
Although I use the term Christian myself as a convenient shorthand, I've come to believe that being "a follower of Jesus" and being "a Christian" are two entirely different, almost mutually exclusive things. If the Holy Spirit were real and were actually at work throughout Christianity, the Good News couldn't possibly look like this.
What is the good news, in your opinion, Irkle? Are you a universalist?
In fact, the bad news for most is such bad news, it taints the good news for the others.
Knowing your neighbors, friends and loved ones are burning in hell forever is such a horrible idea - how can we pretend that our lives in the new kingdom with our merciful God would not be contaminated and spoiled by this nightmarish reflection?
If you think that God's Justice and Holiness are the reason many will be eternally punished -
You are heading for a glorious revelation of Him by the working of ephphatha
Where do you get this teaching that the wicked are supposed to be eternally punished? Certainly not from the Holy scriptures, Just as you will not find anywhere in scripture that John's baptism can scrub away your sins, as you seem to believe.
But the unrepentant wicked, such as those mentioned in Revelation 21: 8; which are the cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practise magic, those who worship idols, and all liars — the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
Their punishment is eternal death, not eternal punishment.
The second death, which is eternal, has no power over the righteous who receive the gift of everlasting life.
From Popes in funny hats, to mega-million-dollar churches, to the prosperity gospel, to the endless internal fussing and feuding over fine points of theology, to the endless scandals, to the difficulty in distinguishing how Christians are really any different from their secular (or Hindu or Buddhist) brethren, it's impossible for me not to think something has gone drastically awry. Christianity as it exists today and has existed at least since the time of Constantine cannot possibly bear any resemblance to anything Jesus was talking about.
To an atheist, all of this means Christianity isn't true. But this isn't an acceptable answer to those of us who have reached reasoned convictions that it is true, and who have experienced the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in our own lives.
Although I use the term Christian myself as a convenient shorthand, I've come to believe that being "a follower of Jesus" and being "a Christian" are two entirely different, almost mutually exclusive things. If the Holy Spirit were real and were actually at work throughout Christianity, the Good News couldn't possibly look like this.
I have similar thoughts to you, But I believe there is more to the situation than meets the eye, where my reading is leading me is to is an appreciation that the Scriptures are about the national and global, but they have to be written to individuals because that is where “we” intellectually, rationally, emotionally are and when we join together the whole becomes more than the parts - the Kingdoms of “this” world are being built up deliberately, and were prophecied in all religious, sacred writings but in symbols, allegories, metaphors- all of the religious/political/social structures, and that within all individuals is a spark of “spirit” and also within all systems are those that know right/wrong and will do what is right even if it means they are rejected by their “peers” for the good of our “collective” posterity
Since the 1500’s There has been social/religious/political upheavals ie “earthquakes” the writings of the Greeks, Romans have these things in them but you need to sift the “seed” “wheat” from the “chaff” which holds the “wheat” I believe eventually common sense, community will prevail but it requires that individuals, systems and nations need to be honest and repent, be sorry for and willing to work toward a solution for the problems that they have inherited from their respective “fathers” it is not good enough to just blame others and then perpetuate the same thing, we can not change the past, but we can shape the future by our actions today.
Liberal Christianity is not wrong, but it needs to be about doing the right thing, about being a part of the right influence which is the Spiritual “essence” of what Christianity is, and Jesus typifies a system that is totally sunk in “error” and “darkness” and he takes on all that to save that same “system” which is His Body, the “believers”
From Popes in funny hats, to mega-million-dollar churches, to the prosperity gospel, to the endless internal fussing and feuding over fine points of theology, to the endless scandals, to the difficulty in distinguishing how Christians are really any different from their secular (or Hindu or Buddhist) brethren, it's impossible for me not to think something has gone drastically awry. Christianity as it exists today and has existed at least since the time of Constantine cannot possibly bear any resemblance to anything Jesus was talking about.
To an atheist, all of this means Christianity isn't true. But this isn't an acceptable answer to those of us who have reached reasoned convictions that it is true, and who have experienced the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in our own lives,
Although I use the term Christian myself as a convenient shorthand, I've come to believe that being "a follower of Jesus" and being "a Christian" are two entirely different, almost mutually exclusive things. If the Holy Spirit were real and were actually at work throughout Christianity, the Good News couldn't possibly look like this.
You are right.
I get believing if you do not believe in Jesus you’re going to eternal hell sounds like good news for the world, but Jesus did not teach that, and when you take a proper look at that false message passed off to be good news that he saves us from eternal hell, then the effect of that is not a renewal of the mind that brings about transformation, but relief that is not where you end up, and it ends there where you become a slave to how you perceive God to be,in other words you become morally minded, most people I know that don’t believe have morals that they live by too.
From Popes in funny hats, to mega-million-dollar churches, to the prosperity gospel, to the endless internal fussing and feuding over fine points of theology, to the endless scandals, to the difficulty in distinguishing how Christians are really any different from their secular (or Hindu or Buddhist) brethren, it's impossible for me not to think something has gone drastically awry. Christianity as it exists today and has existed at least since the time of Constantine cannot possibly bear any resemblance to anything Jesus was talking about.
To an atheist, all of this means Christianity isn't true. But this isn't an acceptable answer to those of us who have reached reasoned convictions that it is true, and who have experienced the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in our own lives.
Although I use the term Christian myself as a convenient shorthand, I've come to believe that being "a follower of Jesus" and being "a Christian" are two entirely different, almost mutually exclusive things. If the Holy Spirit were real and were actually at work throughout Christianity, the Good News couldn't possibly look like this.
Zechariah 11:12-17 King James Version (KJV)
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
When our Lord God, ‘The Son of Man’ the MOST HIGH, and Supreme personality to have developed within the creation that is the Logos God made manifest, who had filled his earthly temple ‘The Man Jesus’ with his spirit, was paid the majestic wage of thirty pieces of Silver, he then abandoned his flock when he allowed the Romans, who the Jewish authorities had used as their weapon to kill his chosen heir and successor ‘The Man Jesus,’ to utterly destroy Jerusalem and make the land of Judah a wasteland, and scatter his flock into the European countries of the Roman Empire.
“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
"Will have" = thelo
"He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,"
Potentate = Sovereign authority = exousia =
Ability & strength to do as He pleases.
Our God is not the ultimate gambler. He Is the One who does as He pleases with the ability & strength to do it.
He is not the God of good wishes.
"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."
Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlightened by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very universe, is creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?
"The first thing I want you to do is pray. Pray every way you know how, for everyone you know. Pray especially for rulers and their governments to rule well so we can be quietly about our business of living simply, in humble contemplation. This is the way our Savior God wants us to live.
He wants not only us but everyone saved, you know, everyone to get to know the truth we’ve learned: that there’s one God and only one, and one Priest-Mediator between God and us—Jesus, who offered himself in exchange for everyone held captive by sin, to set them all free." -MSG-
What is the good news, in your opinion, Irkle? Are you a universalist?
The good news is that the kingdom of God has come to all men and women and that all may enter by turning to Jesus instead of slavishly and unsuccessfully trying to follow the demands of the law. The good news is liberating, not divisive. The good news is appealing, not repulsive. The good news shines through those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit; it doesn't hang over them like a dark cloud that repels others.
Am I a universalist? I answered that in post #1438 above, which now seems like about four years ago. The fate of those who don't turn to Jesus is above my pay grade. I neither believe nor disbelieve universalism. I neither believe nor disbelieve the most rigid doctrine of hell and damnation. I do believe the good news is a fundamentally positive message, or the gospel wouldn't be called the gospel. I trust in the ultimate wisdom and goodness of God.
Yes, Jesus sometimes spoke harshly and with dire warnings to those who deserved or needed it. But people weren't attracted to him out of fear. They were attracted to him because his core message was liberating and inclusive of those who were society's outcasts, the lowest of the low and the worst of the worst.
Look, I understand the appeal of Bible literalism and the most rigid forms of fundamentalist Christianity. I started my Christian journey in just such a group. I don't say these people aren't Christians or aren't saved. I consider them my brothers and sisters in Christ. I don't pooh-pooh even the beliefs that strike me as the most wacky, such as Flat Earthers and Young Earthers.
But I can certainly see that Christianity as a whole has become something very different from what Jesus was talking about and isn't accomplishing what Jesus would have wanted. Jesus was talking about a radical transformation of human nature and a radical transformation of society. He wasn't talking about just another all-too-human religion essentially indistinguishable from a secular industry with bitterly competing mega-corporations.
The similarity between Jesus and a Zen master has often been noted. A typical response from a Zen master often seems on the surface like outrageous nonsense. If necessary, a Zen master may administer a physical blow that literally staggers a novice.
I believe many of Jesus' statements were in this vein. They were outrageous wake-up calls, impossible demands, horrendous threats. He was really saying, "Face it, you can't do any of this on your own. Neither can anyone else. You need God, you need the Holy Spirit." Unfortunately, those are the very elements of the message that Christianity takes most literally and manages to turn the Good News into the Bad News.
The good news is that the kingdom of God has come to all men and women and that all may enter by turning to Jesus instead of slavishly and unsuccessfully trying to follow the demands of the law. The good news is liberating, not divisive. The good news is appealing, not repulsive. The good news shines through those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit; it doesn't hang over them like a dark cloud that repels others.
Am I a universalist? I answered that in post #1438 above, which now seems like about four years ago. The fate of those who don't turn to Jesus is above my pay grade. I neither believe nor disbelieve universalism. I neither believe nor disbelieve the most rigid doctrine of hell and damnation. I do believe the good news is a fundamentally positive message, or the gospel wouldn't be called the gospel. I trust in the ultimate wisdom and goodness of God.
Yes, Jesus sometimes spoke harshly and with dire warnings to those who deserved or needed it. But people weren't attracted to him out of fear. They were attracted to him because his core message was liberating and inclusive of those who were society's outcasts, the lowest of the low and the worst of the worst.
Look, I understand the appeal of Bible literalism and the most rigid forms of fundamentalist Christianity. I started my Christian journey in just such a group. I don't say these people aren't Christians or aren't saved. I consider them my brothers and sisters in Christ. I don't pooh-pooh even the beliefs that strike me as the most wacky, such as Flat Earthers and Young Earthers.
But I can certainly see that Christianity as a whole has become something very different from what Jesus was talking about and isn't accomplishing what Jesus would have wanted. Jesus was talking about a radical transformation of human nature and a radical transformation of society. He wasn't talking about just another all-too-human religion essentially indistinguishable from a secular industry with bitterly competing mega-corporations.
The similarity between Jesus and a Zen master has often been noted. A typical response from a Zen master often seems on the surface like outrageous nonsense. If necessary, a Zen master may administer a physical blow that literally staggers a novice.
I believe many of Jesus' statements were in this vein. They were outrageous wake-up calls, impossible demands, horrendous threats. He was really saying, "Face it, you can't do any of this on your own. Neither can anyone else. You need God, you need the Holy Spirit." Unfortunately, those are the very elements of the message that Christianity takes most literally and manages to turn the Good News into the Bad News.
OK, end of sermon.
Then we generally agree. I don’t believe Christianity is a lost cause. My own church exhibits the love of Christ to our community every day.
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