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"The first thing I want you to do is pray. Pray every way you know how, for everyone you know. Pray especially for rulers and their governments to rule well so we can be quietly about our business of living simply, in humble contemplation. This is the way our Savior God wants us to live.
He wants not only us but everyone saved, you know, everyone to get to know the truth we’ve learned: that there’s one God and only one, and one Priest-Mediator between God and us—Jesus, who offered himself in exchange for everyone held captive by sin, to set them all free." -MSG-
The good news is that the kingdom of God has come to all men and women and that all may enter by turning to Jesus instead of slavishly and unsuccessfully trying to follow the demands of the law. The good news is liberating, not divisive. The good news is appealing, not repulsive. The good news shines through those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit; it doesn't hang over them like a dark cloud that repels others.
Am I a universalist? I answered that in post #1438 above, which now seems like about four years ago. The fate of those who don't turn to Jesus is above my pay grade. I neither believe nor disbelieve universalism. I neither believe nor disbelieve the most rigid doctrine of hell and damnation. I do believe the good news is a fundamentally positive message, or the gospel wouldn't be called the gospel. I trust in the ultimate wisdom and goodness of God.
Yes, Jesus sometimes spoke harshly and with dire warnings to those who deserved or needed it. But people weren't attracted to him out of fear. They were attracted to him because his core message was liberating and inclusive of those who were society's outcasts, the lowest of the low and the worst of the worst.
Look, I understand the appeal of Bible literalism and the most rigid forms of fundamentalist Christianity. I started my Christian journey in just such a group. I don't say these people aren't Christians or aren't saved. I consider them my brothers and sisters in Christ. I don't pooh-pooh even the beliefs that strike me as the most wacky, such as Flat Earthers and Young Earthers.
But I can certainly see that Christianity as a whole has become something very different from what Jesus was talking about and isn't accomplishing what Jesus would have wanted. Jesus was talking about a radical transformation of human nature and a radical transformation of society. He wasn't talking about just another all-too-human religion essentially indistinguishable from a secular industry with bitterly competing mega-corporations.
The similarity between Jesus and a Zen master has often been noted. A typical response from a Zen master often seems on the surface like outrageous nonsense. If necessary, a Zen master may administer a physical blow that literally staggers a novice.
I believe many of Jesus' statements were in this vein. They were outrageous wake-up calls, impossible demands, horrendous threats. He was really saying, "Face it, you can't do any of this on your own. Neither can anyone else. You need God, you need the Holy Spirit." Unfortunately, those are the very elements of the message that Christianity takes most literally and manages to turn the Good News into the Bad News.
OK, end of sermon.
I agree with what you are saying, but one thing, He did predict that there would be divisions in His Name - and Paul, James, John, et el confirm that in their various writings, and He sends it
That is what the separation of the wheat and tares is about, and I believe it’s not about individuals as such but the associations, systems we build based on the ideals, beliefs we individually hold, the yeast, producing metaphors are related to like producing like and also growing. That relates to both the good and bad.
uk 12:49 I came to hurl fire into the earth, and what will I if it already has been lit?
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to be immersed in, and how am I pressed until it is done!
Luk 12:51 Do you think that I came to give peace in the earth? No, I say to you, But rather division.
Luk 12:52 For from now on five in one house will have been divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 Father will be divided against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against mother; mother-in-law against her bride, "and the bride against her mother-in-law." Mic. 7:6
We need to read things in context of who is being spoken to, and where
By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…
Ex= The Source
Di= The Agent
Eiv= The Goal
The koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.
ta pavnte/ ta panta, in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.
**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”
The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.
The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis
“You are always with me, and everything I have is yours.”
“Of all the conceptions of the divine, of all the language Jesus could put on the lips of the God character in the story he tells, that’s what he has the Father say. “You are always with me, and everything I have is yours.” …Millions of people in our world were told that God so loved the world, that God sent his son to save the world, and that if they accept and believe in Jesus, then they’ll be able to have a relationship with God…
**But there’s more.**
Millions have been taught that if they don’t believe, if they don’t accept in the right way, that is, the way the person telling them the gospel does, and they were hit by a car and died later that same day, God will have no choice but to punish them forever in conscious torment in hell…
A loving heavenly father who will go to extraordinary lengths to have a relationship with them would, in the blink of an eye, become a cruel, mean, vicious tormentor who would ensure that they had no escape from an endless future of agony… if your God is loving one second and cruel the next, if your God will punish people for all eternity for sins committed in a few short years, no amount of clever marketing or compelling language or good music or great coffee will be able to disguise that one, true, glaring, untenable, acceptable, awful reality… sometimes the reason people have a problem accepting “the gospel” is that they sense that the God lurking behind Jesus isn’t safe, loving, or good. It doesn’t make sense it can’t be reconciled, and so they say no… God create, because the endless joy and peace and shared life at the heart of this God knows no other way. Jesus invites us into that relationship, the one at the center of the universe… so when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club.
The good news is better than that.” -Rob. Bell (Love Wins)
Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlightened by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very universe, is creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?
Jesus said, “if you don’t believe, you are condemned already.” John 3
Self condemnation not God condemnation. You have no idea how many folk live under that condemnation, and here are you telling the self condemned that God's condemnation is upon them too. Is it any wonder bible fundamentalism is looked upon the way it is.
Jesus said, "if you don’t believe, you are condemned already." John 3
I don't believe it means to condemn as in that of a murderer to a life of imprisonment or be subjected to the death penalty for merely not believing. Tell me, Jimmiej, has justice been served, if people are PUNISHED for their beliefs or lack thereof, instead of their actions?
Jesus said, “if you don’t believe, you are condemned already.” John 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
I don't believe it means to condemn as in that of a murderer to a life of imprisonment or be subjected to the death penalty for merely not believing. Tell me, Jimmiej, has justice been served, if people are PUNISHED for their beliefs or lack thereof, instead of their actions?
When you condemn an innocent man to death; there is no justice.
I don't believe it means to condemn as in that of a murderer to a life of imprisonment or be subjected to the death penalty for merely not believing. Tell me, Jimmiej, has justice been served, if people are PUNISHED for their beliefs or lack thereof, instead of their actions?
It's so much easier to ignore a person than to answer a reasonable question, isn't that right, Jimmiej? But I will ask again, has justice been served, if people are PUNISHED for their beliefs or lack thereof, instead of their actions?
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