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Among others the Apostolic Father Ignatius of Antioch dove pretty deep into this topic - and like from the very beginning (he died 117AD). It's true that 'doctrines' weren't 'formalized' till hundreds of years later, but their understandings are not at all ambiguous as we can witness their mind by their writings (which are all openly available on the web- free; I think meerkat posted some links sometime back).
I don't have time at this moment to 'pull quotes', but may at some time later.
One quick thought that's always resonated with me, is that we, man, are created as Mind + Body + Spirit, each unique but each making 'us', and there is just one 'us' - so that we are created in His image - "Let us create him in Our Image" - 'Our Image' being the Trinity - Father, Son, Holy Spirit; each unique but also just One.
There's more, but I'm out of time...
That's okay, but I'd appreciate it if you'd define the terms, "mind, body, and spirit" for me so that we can get on the same state to start with. And is each of these "fully you" or just part of what constitutes "you"?
That's okay, but I'd appreciate it if you'd define the terms, "mind, body, and spirit" for me so that we can get on the same state to start with. And is each of these "fully you" or just part of what constitutes "you"?
still don't have time to jump into detail, but here are the links I mentioned previous post:
I realize that, but I'm speaking specifically of the "Trinity doctrine" espoused by the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds. I'm referring to the terminology that would have been utterly foreign to 1st-century Jewish converts to Christianity. The "Godhead" of the Bible is comprised of a divine Father, a divine Son and a divine Holy Spirit. The Hellenization of Christianity turned this simple concept into a complicated one. The same individual that I quoted in my OP also stated, "However, most Christians by the late second - fifth centuries were Gentile and predominantly Greek-speaking (indeed Jewish Christianity seems to have died out entirely by around the late fourth century CE). As such, they (we?) naturally had recourse to the developed language of philosophy (Platonism and Aristotelianism) to try and 'scientifically' (in the ancient sense) express this mysterious doctrine of the unicity of God." I can totally understand why Jewish Christianity would have died out. These were the original Christians, the Christians who personally listened to Jesus and His Apostles teach this gospel. It's clear to me that as Greek philosophy corrupted the true Christian concept of God, it was no longer palatable to the Judeo-Christian community.
My understanding is that Jesus was a teacher of Mysteries as He noted Himself, particularly Egyptian Mysteries Plus, so, Early Christianity was in Trinity 'mode' and strait readers came up with what lived till today ,
even if they had to correct generation of copied MSS (Johannine Comma).
My understanding is that Jesus was a teacher of Mysteries as He noted Himself, particularly Egyptian Mysteries Plus, so, Early Christianity was in Trinity 'mode' and strait readers came up with what lived till today ,
even if they had to correct generation of copied MSS (Johannine Comma).
As in "three hypostases in one ousia." A concept like this, whether in Greek or Aramaic or anything else would have meant absolutely nothing to a Jew. Furthermore, we don't have any scriptures in which this concept is taught.
Ok here are some of the beginning snippets of early fathers:
The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).
Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).
“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).
Justin Martyr
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).
Theophilus of Antioch
“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).
Irenaeus
“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).
I could keep going, a few decades at a time, but it’s all there in links I sent.
As in "three hypostases in one ousia." A concept like this, whether in Greek or Aramaic or anything else would have meant absolutely nothing to a Jew. Furthermore, we don't have any scriptures in which this concept is taught.
Here are some scriptures which reveal it ( not at all a complete list - you’ll get the point):
John 17:5 :… and now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory which I had with you before the world was made.
John 10:30: “I and the Father are one,”
John 15:26: But when the Counselor comes (the Holy Spirit), whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me…
I Cor. 2:11 : “… no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”
I realize that, but I'm speaking specifically of the "Trinity doctrine" espoused by the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds. I'm referring to the terminology that would have been utterly foreign to 1st-century Jewish converts to Christianity. The "Godhead" of the Bible is comprised of a divine Father, a divine Son and a divine Holy Spirit. The Hellenization of Christianity turned this simple concept into a complicated one. The same individual that I quoted in my OP also stated, "However, most Christians by the late second - fifth centuries were Gentile and predominantly Greek-speaking (indeed Jewish Christianity seems to have died out entirely by around the late fourth century CE). As such, they (we?) naturally had recourse to the developed language of philosophy (Platonism and Aristotelianism) to try and 'scientifically' (in the ancient sense) express this mysterious doctrine of the unicity of God." I can totally understand why Jewish Christianity would have died out. These were the original Christians, the Christians who personally listened to Jesus and His Apostles teach this gospel. It's clear to me that as Greek philosophy corrupted the true Christian concept of God, it was no longer palatable to the Judeo-Christian community.
As someone once said here on CD, Christianity may have been a sect of Judaism and that that sect was looking for a more relaxed and less strict form of Judaism and that the early sect was more like the Reform Jews of today...
One quick thought that's always resonated with me, is that we, man, are created as Mind + Body + Spirit, each unique but each making 'us', and there is just one 'us' - so that we are created in His image - "Let us create him in Our Image" - 'Our Image' being the Trinity - Father, Son, Holy Spirit; each unique but also just One.
There's more, but I'm out of time...
This isn't a new thought...It's actually old...When G-d said, "Let Us make man in our image", He was talking to the angels, His counsel...Your Mind, Body and Spirit cannot be compared to a trinity...
Bereisheet - Genesis - Chapter 1
26 And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
Rashi:
Let us make man: From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, (I Kings 22:19): “I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.” Now do “left” or “right” apply to Him ?! But rather, [the passage means that] these [angels] were standing on the right to defend, and these [angels] were standing on the left to prosecute. Likewise, (Dan. 4:14): “By the decree of the destructive angels is the matter, and by the word of the holy ones is the edict.” Here too, He took counsel with His heavenly household. He said to them, “Among the heavenly beings, there are some in My likeness. If there are none in My likeness among the earthly beings, there will be envy among the creatures of the Creation. ” - [from Tanchuma, Shemoth 18; Gen. Rabbah 8:11, 14:13]
Let us make man: Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא),” and it does not say,“and they created (וַיִּבְרְאוּ).” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]
in our image: in our form.
after our likeness: to understand and to discern.
and they shall rule over the fish: Heb. וְיִרְדּוּ This expression contains both the meaning of ruling and the meaning of subservience. If he merits, he rules over the beasts and over the cattle. If he does not merit, he becomes subservient to them, and the beast rules over him. — [from Gen. Rabbah 8:12]
This isn't a new thought...It's actually old...When G-d said, "Let Us make man in our image", He was talking to the angels, His counsel...Your Mind, Body and Spirit cannot be compared to a trinity...
As in "three hypostases in one ousia." A concept like this, whether in Greek or Aramaic or anything else would have meant absolutely nothing to a Jew. Furthermore, we don't have any scriptures in which this concept is taught.
Judaism was based on several other sources, nicely said in Matthew, 'out of Egypt ' and magi, and Abraham walked out of Sumer, and Melchizedek blessed him...combined with 'holy race' that is pure genetic.
Transfer of spiritual authority to Judaism is shown in OT an NT.
"24In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25whom the Lord of hosts has blessed, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my inheritance.”, for example.
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