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Well, for anyone who is interested, here's the doctrine of forgiveness as delineated by Wenstrom Bible Ministries which is a non-denominational church which teaches verse-by-verse.
Can you point to any passages that say that you must both confess and repent in order to be forgiven? And are those passages addressed to believers or unbelievers?
In Luke 17:3–4, where Jesus tells us, “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him;
and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Notice that Jesus says to forgive him if he repents, not regardless of whether he does so.
Jesus also envisions the person coming back to you and admitting his wrong.
In my church (Presbyterian), each Sunday during worship, we read a confession of our sin (a standard paragraph that is read every week) and then the minister announces that we are all forgiven. The message that I get both at worship services and in other church activities is that we’re forgiven.
Great, but the more I read the Bible, the more I doubt that we’re automatically forgiven (or forgiven if we confess our sins).
It seems like repentance is also a condition to being forgiven. See Matthew 18:15-17 and lots of other passages.
Shouldn’t churches focus on getting members to both confess their sins and repent from them? Mine doesn’t talk much about repentance but I think that it should.
Does your church talk a lot about the need to repent?
Thanks.
https://biblehub.com/greek/3340.htm
3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").
In Luke 17:3–4, where Jesus tells us, “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him;
and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Notice that Jesus says to forgive him if he repents, not regardless of whether he does so.
Jesus also envisions the person coming back to you and admitting his wrong.
I was asking the OP what verses he thinks say that you must both repent and acknowledge your sins in order to be forgiven. By repentance the OP takes that to be “ending sinful behavior” by which I think he means to never commit the sin again.
https://biblehub.com/greek/3340.htm
3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").
21“Believe Me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
so. if you worship Father 'on this mountain' or 'in Jerusalem' as procedures of worship you need to change your mind - repent.
I was asking the OP what verses he thinks say that you must both repent and acknowledge your sins in order to be forgiven. By repentance the OP takes that to be “ending sinful behavior” by which I think he means to never commit the sin again.
Sure:
Acts 3:19: Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Acts 11:18:
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
Luke 17:3-4:
3 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.
Revelation 2:5:
Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Romans 2:5:
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
2 Chronicles 7:14:
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Proverbs 28:13:
Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper,
but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy.
Ezekiel 18:32:
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
Luke 13:3:
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
In my church (Presbyterian), each Sunday during worship, we read a confession of our sin (a standard paragraph that is read every week) and then the minister announces that we are all forgiven. The message that I get both at worship services and in other church activities is that we’re forgiven.
Great, but the more I read the Bible, the more I doubt that we’re automatically forgiven (or forgiven if we confess our sins).
It seems like repentance is also a condition to being forgiven. See Matthew 18:15-17 and lots of other passages.
Shouldn’t churches focus on getting members to both confess their sins and repent from them? Mine doesn’t talk much about repentance but I think that it should.
Does your church talk a lot about the need to repent?
Thanks.
We do, as it is actually essential in a Christians life, and a big part of the message.
In my church (Presbyterian), each Sunday during worship, we read a confession of our sin (a standard paragraph that is read every week) and then the minister announces that we are all forgiven. The message that I get both at worship services and in other church activities is that we’re forgiven.
Great, but the more I read the Bible, the more I doubt that we’re automatically forgiven (or forgiven if we confess our sins).
It seems like repentance is also a condition to being forgiven. See Matthew 18:15-17 and lots of other passages.
Shouldn’t churches focus on getting members to both confess their sins and repent from them? Mine doesn’t talk much about repentance but I think that it should.
Does your church talk a lot about the need to repent?
Thanks.
As a general rule, no, they don't. Seems like most churches today are about entertaining the masses. THe ones that talk about sin and repentance are not usually popular. No one wants to be told they should repent.
Look at this forum, for example. Tell someone that something is sin and you'll get rebuked by many. I've been told by several people they don't sin. So why would they seek out a church that teaches repentance from said sin?
As for my church? My pastor routinely preaches Christ saving us from our sin. He invites people to come to Christ, and he challenges us to live holy lives.
Acts 3:19: Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
This was addressed to unbelievers. To repent with regard to salvation means to have a change of mind regarding Jesus. You didn't believe in Jesus but then you heard the gospel and did believe. You repented. That verse has nothing to do with someone who already is a believer who sins and who simply needs to acknowledge the sin to be forgiven.
Quote:
Acts 11:18:
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
The same as above. The repentance is with regard to salvation.
Quote:
Luke 17:3-4:
3 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.
Sure, but this is dealing with believers forgiving each other and is not referring to the believer who sins being forgiven by God once he simply acknowledges his sin or sins.
Quote:
Revelation 2:5:
Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Yes, but this is addressing a church congregation which has lost its focus on Jesus, having left their first love. That church needs to regain its focus on Jesus.
Quote:
Romans 2:5:
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
This is true. The believer who continues to sin does invite divine discipline.
Quote:
2 Chronicles 7:14:
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
This is referring to national discipline on Israel if they do not turn away from sin, but it does not imply that a believer must never sin again or never commit the same sin again in order to be forgiven.
Quote:
Proverbs 28:13:
Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper,
but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that each time a person commits the same sin God won't forgive him. Each time a person sins the moment he simply confesses or acknowledges the sin he is forgiven even though divine discipline may continue. But if divine discipline does continue after the believer confesses the sin, the discipline is for blessing. The believer who continually commits the same sin will be forgiven each time he confesses the sin, but because he keeps committing the same sin over and over he will not be advancing in his spiritual life as a believer.
Quote:
Ezekiel 18:32:
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
This is speaking of national discipline on Israel if they do not turn back to God.
Quote:
Luke 13:3:
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
Jesus here appears to be referring to the need to repent with regard to salvation. That is to go from unbelief to believe in him.
Whenever the word 'repent' is used it must be determined in what context it is being used. Is it referring to salvation, or to sin, or to dead works?
None of the verses you listed say that you must never sin again, or that you must never commit the same sin again in order to be forgiven. When Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive someone who sins against him, Jesus said
Matthew 18:22 Jesus says to him, "I say to you not up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven!
Jesus wasn't setting an upper limit on how many times you can forgive someone but was essentially saying that no matter how many times a person sins against you, you should forgive him. If God expects that of us will he do less himself?
When you commit a sin as a believer, simply acknowledge the sin to God and move on with your spiritual life. You can never commit a sin for which Jesus did not already pay the penalty.
Last edited by mensaguy; 06-28-2021 at 06:43 PM..
Reason: Replaced missing quote tag
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