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The Penal Substitution theory is a product/construct of religious men who need their pound of flesh to cover their SIN.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
It is no theory but a doctrine that is in accordance with the absolute truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ; and it is a doctrine without which no one can be saved.
The enemy of the cross is none other than that of JBF. And his pharisaic, legalistic doctrines of men who hold to a pretentious sanctity of their own superiority, while crucifying the innocent. You wouldn't know the truth, if it smack you upside the head.
It is clear to me, Mystic, that you place your own point of view above that of the holy scriptures when it comes to the authority that you attribute to each one.
The scripture is clear.
Stop lying. It is NOT my own anything! Can we at least agree that you and I see Jesus as God on the Cross revealing God's True Nature? I use that True Nature to interpret what our primitive ancestors who did NOT know God's True Nature wrote. Their interpretations are clear but they use the wrong beliefs about God's nature as the basis for them.
There is no threat against me or anyone except those who are spiritually becoming someone incompatible with the Holy Spirit of agape love who IS God. They interpreted that in the only way they knew or could express it. Your failure to recognize that aspect of the scripture is a failure of your hermeneutic and exegesis. You interpret primitive men as if they were modern men.
Stop lying. It is NOT my own anything! Can we at least agree that you and I see Jesus as God on the Cross revealing God's True Nature? I use that True Nature to interpret what our primitive ancestors who did NOT know God's True Nature wrote. Their interpretations are clear but they use the wrong beliefs about God's nature as the basis for them.
There is no threat against me or anyone except those who are spiritually becoming someone incompatible with the Holy Spirit of agape love who IS God. They interpreted that in the only way they knew or could express it. Your failure to recognize that aspect of the scripture is a failure of your hermeneutic and exegesis. You interpret primitive men as if they were modern men.
What kind of Christian are you, Mystic? I've never known your kind!
This is the respect you have for the holy men who God chose to pen His words?
This is a slap in the face of God, I'm happy to know I'm not in your shoes come judgment day!
What kind of Christian are you, Mystic? I've never known your kind!
I read everything about your Christian dogma and found it full of unresolvable contradictions in my search to understand the God who erased my atheism. I was unimpressed until I read about Jesus and how He described God's Holy Spirit and the descriptions of His responses to His scourging and crucifixion with agape love and forgiveness, even for His torturers and murderers. That is what captured my attention because THAT is the consciousness I encountered.
I had a new respect for the scriptures that told of Him but I had to reinterpret what I knew had to be primitive ignorance about God reflected in the scriptures. I used the unambiguous match to the God that had erased my atheism as the True Nature of God. Fortunately, I had nothing to unlearn about believing any ancient holy men who wrote about God. I simply read their words and interpreted what they must have meant using what I KNOW is the True Nature of God as revealed by Jesus. THAT is the kind of Christian I am, Charlie.
Quote:
This is the respect you have for the holy men who God chose to pen His words?
This is a slap in the face of God, I'm happy to know I'm not in your shoes come judgment day!
It is not a slap in the face to God. Retaining the ancient ignorant interpretations of God are the real slap in the face, IMO. They were sincere, well-meaning primitives, but they did NOT know God despite supposedly spending actual time with Him. That is the part that makes me strongly suspect that any original oral reports were severely corrupted using the dominant view of a wrathful God in that era. It seems inescapable that was the source of the corruption.
Anyone who had spent any time with Jesus as He revealed Himself to be on the Cross, would NEVER have attributed some of the things they do to Him. Just as I who have encountered the Oneness that is God could never believe any of these charlatans, Booksellers, Video sellers, and otherwise money-grubbing jokers who claim to have achieved it.
I read everything about your Christian dogma and found it full of unresolvable contradictions in my search to understand the God who erased my atheism. I was unimpressed until I read about Jesus and how He described God's Holy Spirit and the descriptions of His responses to His scourging and crucifixion with agape love and forgiveness, even for His torturers and murderers. That is what captured my attention because THAT is the consciousness I encountered.
I had a new respect for the scriptures that told of Him but I had to reinterpret what I knew had to be primitive ignorance about God reflected in the scriptures. I used the unambiguous match to the God that had erased my atheism as the True Nature of God. Fortunately, I had nothing to unlearn about believing any ancient holy men who wrote about God. I simply read their words and interpreted what they must have meant using what I KNOW is the True Nature of God as revealed by Jesus. THAT is the kind of Christian I am, Charlie.
It is not a slap in the face to God. Retaining the ancient ignorant interpretations of God are the real slap in the face, IMO. They were sincere, well-meaning primitives, but they did NOT know God despite supposedly spending actual time with Him. That is the part that makes me strongly suspect that any original oral reports were severely corrupted using the dominant view of a wrathful God in that era. It seems inescapable that was the source of the corruption.
Anyone who had spent any time with Jesus as He revealed Himself to be on the Cross, would NEVER have attributed some of the things they do to Him. Just as I who have encountered the Oneness that is God could never believe any of these charlatans, Booksellers, Video sellers, and otherwise money-grubbing jokers who claim to have achieved it.
Maybe I can help with those "unresolvable contradictions," if you tell me what they are?
The enemy of the cross is none other than that of JBF. And his pharisaic, legalistic doctrines of men who hold to a pretentious sanctity of their own superiority, while crucifying the innocent. You wouldn't know the truth, if it smack you upside the head.
Hi Jerwade,
It appears to me that you keep digging a deeper hole for yourself the more that we attempt to converse as to the meaning of holy scripture.
For this reason, I am not certain that I should continue speaking with you; lest I make a statement that you, in your hardened heart, would respond to with some kind of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
The enemy of the cross is none other than that of JBF. And his pharisaic, legalistic doctrines of men who hold to a pretentious sanctity of their own superiority, while crucifying the innocent. You wouldn't know the truth, if it smack you upside the head.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
Hi Jerwade,
It appears to me that you keep digging a deeper hole for yourself the more that we attempt to converse as to the meaning of holy scripture.
For this reason, I am not certain that I should continue speaking with you; lest I make a statement that you, in your hardened heart, would respond to with some kind of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
The one digging a hole is that of yourself, as I do not condemn people to the fictitious hellhole of the self-righteous. You are the one taken in by the beliefs of fables, demons, the devil or Satan, and that of a non-existent place of damnation called the netherworld from which there is no escape. You, even have sin increasing in this environment at an exponential rate, as if there is nothing this god you serve and believe-in can do anything about it? I know it places you on some kind of pedestal in your eyes. However, I know it is going to come crumbling down around you.
It will all be borne out for all to see in the due process of time.
I know that I have availed myself of what Jesus did for me on the Cross; and that gives me the one-uppance on you who have not availed yourself of that only means of forgiveness from the right hand of the Father.
Consider Pascal's wager.
If I am right and you are wrong, you have lost everything for that you do not believe as I do.
If you are right and I am wrong, then we all just die and lose consciousness in the final end; and I am no worse off than you, my friend.
It will all be borne out for all to see in the due process of time.
I know that I have availed myself of what Jesus did for me on the Cross; and that gives me the one-uppance on you who have not availed yourself of that only means of forgiveness from the right hand of the Father.
Consider Pascal's wager.
If I am right and you are wrong, you have lost everything for that you do not believe as I do.
If you are right and I am wrong, then we all just die and lose consciousness in the final end; and I am no worse off than you, my friend.
I have availed myself of the same faith in Christ, JBF. We just differ on WHY we think He saved us. You think He saved us from the nonexistent wrath of God and I believe He saved us from our human inability to love as God loves by loving as God loves in His HUMAN consciousness. The bottom line is the same. Jesus saved us on the Cross and He abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." Our task is to love God and each other every day and repent when we fail.
I have availed myself of the same faith in Christ, JBF. We just differ on WHY we think He saved us. You think He saved us from the nonexistent wrath of God and I believe He saved us from our human inability to love as God loves by loving as God loves in His HUMAN consciousness. The bottom line is the same. Jesus saved us on the Cross and He abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." Our task is to love God and each other every day and repent when we fail.
But you don't believe that He has saved you from hell; and you also don't avail yourself of the blood of Jesus as a propitiary sacrifice for your sins.
Because you don't, you are not forgiven through the blood of Christ, and delivered from wrath; because in order to be forgiven through the blood of Christ you must appropriate the blood of Christ through faith.
The fact that Jesus said from the Cross, "Father, forgive them" means that they were not yet forgiven up to that point.
It indicates that the people would be forgiven through what Jesus was going through during the six hours that He would be hanging upon the Cross.
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