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I'm assuming you made 33 AD, or right after Jesus rose.
That's right. Good catch. I wasn't thinking.
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But how would you know that?
I've studied the history. And seriously, a great many of the doctrines that were considered "orthodox" during the 4th through the 8th centuries were completely unknown in 33AD.
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Remember, I'm the one arguing that we should use the Bible. The NT is comprised of historical narratives written by eyewitnesses and letters from his apostles.
But the Bible is silent on the use of the cross or crucifix as an icon, so appealing to the Bible for an answer on this particular topic isn't going to work.
It seems rather problematic that so many people believe that the Christian religion was corrupted almost from the very beginning. Where does that leave over a billion people who call themselves Christians? Especially given the fact that Christians are divided on every essential aspect and minutae of christian teachings into literally thousands of sects.
It seems rather problematic that so many people believe that the Christian religion was corrupted almost from the very beginning. Where does that leave over a billion people who call themselves Christians? Especially given the fact that Christians are divided on every essential aspect and minutae of christian teachings into literally thousands of sects.
They have to believe that in order to justify their separation from Rome.
If they were to concede that the Church has remained pure in her teaching and practice since the beginning, then they would have to look for where the Church is today. They can't face the reality of the implications of that.
At least, that was my story until I was knocked down a few notches and forced to confront reality or else risk eternal separation from God.
It seems rather problematic that so many people believe that the Christian religion was corrupted almost from the very beginning. Where does that leave over a billion people who call themselves Christians?
It doesn't leave them being anything but Christian. All of them worship Jesus Christ and acknowledge them as their Lord and Savior. That's what makes a person Christian. God's full capable of correcting our individual misunderstandings of doctrine and misinterpretations of scripture once we stand before Him to be judged. It's not going to be all that much of an issue for Him.
That's awfully condescending of you, Mike. I hadn't pegged you as being quite so smug about your beliefs, especially because, when it gets right down to it, all they really are is beliefs. You may feel strongly about your beliefs, but so do the rest of us, and if we could all just acknowledge that we are all just doing the best we can and could possibly be wrong as to what we believe, this world would be a lot better place.
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
They have to believe that in order to justify their separation from Rome.
If they were to concede that the Church has remained pure in her teaching and practice since the beginning, then they would have to look for where the Church is today. They can't face the reality of the implications of that.
It's not a matter of anybody have to "justify" anything. For those of us who genuinely believe that the Catholic Church is NOT the church Jesus Christ established, our conscience compels us to separate ourselves from Rome. Don't you think most Christians actually want to "get it right"? People don't want to be a part of a group that is teaching incorrect doctrines. It's just that they believe differently from you.
As far as the Catholic Church remaining "pure in her teaching and practice since the beginning," from my perspective as a Mormon and from the perspective of every Protestant Christian on this forum, that is absolutely not the case. History makes that abundantly clear to every non-Catholic who has ever bothered to take the time to do their research. And that is the "reality."
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At least, that was my story until I was knocked down a few notches and forced to confront reality or else risk eternal separation from God.
To me, that is a real shame. Do you honestly believe that every non-Catholic is risking eternal separation from God? If you do, you're going to be hard-put to show me where that doctrine was taught by Jesus Christ. The "pure" teaching of Christ is in direct opposition to that.
It doesn't leave them being anything but Christian. All of them worship Jesus Christ and acknowledge them as their Lord and Savior. That's what makes a person Christian. God's full capable of correcting our individual misunderstandings of doctrine and misinterpretations of scripture once we stand before Him to be judged. It's not going to be all that much of an issue for Him.
That's awfully condescending of you, Mike. I hadn't pegged you as being quite so smug about your beliefs, especially because, when it gets right down to it, all they really are is beliefs. You may feel strongly about your beliefs, but so do the rest of us, and if we could all just acknowledge that we are all just doing the best we can and could possibly be wrong as to what we believe, this world would be a lot better place.
It's not a matter of anybody have to "justify" anything. For those of us who genuinely believe that the Catholic Church is NOT the church Jesus Christ established, our conscience compels us to separate ourselves from Rome. Don't you think most Christians actually want to "get it right"? People don't want to be a part of a group that is teaching incorrect doctrines. It's just that they believe differently from you.
As far as the Catholic Church remaining "pure in her teaching and practice since the beginning," from my perspective as a Mormon and from the perspective of every Protestant Christian on this forum, that is absolutely not the case. History makes that abundantly clear to every non-Catholic who has ever bothered to take the time to do their research. And that is the "reality."
To me, that is a real shame. Do you honestly believe that every non-Catholic is risking eternal separation from God? If you do, you're going to be hard-put to show me where that doctrine was taught by Jesus Christ. The "pure" teaching of Christ is in direct opposition to that.
That's awfully condescending of you, Mike. I hadn't pegged you as being quite so smug about your beliefs, especially because, when it gets right down to it, all they really are is beliefs. You may feel strongly about your beliefs, but so do the rest of us, and if we could all just acknowledge that we are all just doing the best we can and could possibly be wrong as to what we believe, this world would be a lot better place.
Yeah, I really didn't want to reply again in this thread; and in hindsight I should have kept my thoughts to myself. I wasn't meaning to be condescending or smug though. I was just sharing my own personal experience from my perspective as a former anti-Catholic Protestant. I apologize.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
It's not a matter of anybody have to "justify" anything. For those of us who genuinely believe that the Catholic Church is NOT the church Jesus Christ established, our conscience compels us to separate ourselves from Rome. Don't you think most Christians actually want to "get it right"? People don't want to be a part of a group that is teaching incorrect doctrines. It's just that they believe differently from you.
Trust me, I get that.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
As far as the Catholic Church remaining "pure in her teaching and practice since the beginning," from my perspective as a Mormon and from the perspective of every Protestant Christian on this forum, that is absolutely not the case. History makes that abundantly clear to every non-Catholic who has ever bothered to take the time to do their research. And that is the "reality."
I would have said the same thing at a point in time, but my studies and historical research brought me to the exact opposite conclusion. And I'm not alone. The former Anglican John Henry Newman said "to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
To me, that is a real shame. Do you honestly believe that every non-Catholic is risking eternal separation from God?
Absolutely, I do. I also believe that every Catholic risks eternal separation from God merely by living, as nobody is immune from the possibility of committing a mortal sin and dying in a state of separation from God.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
If you do, you're going to be hard-put to show me where that doctrine was taught by Jesus Christ. The "pure" teaching of Christ is in direct opposition to that.
John 6:53-56 "So Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them."
Where else can I find Christ's flesh to eat? If I forsake it, then I have no life in me.
Yeah, I really didn't want to reply again in this thread; and in hindsight I should have kept my thoughts to myself. I wasn't meaning to be condescending or smug though. I was just sharing my own personal experience from my perspective as a former anti-Catholic Protestant. I apologize.
Trust me, I get that.
I would have said the same thing at a point in time, but my studies and historical research brought me to the exact opposite conclusion. And I'm not alone. The former Anglican John Henry Newman said "to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."
Absolutely, I do. I also believe that every Catholic risks eternal separation from God merely by living, as nobody is immune from the possibility of committing a mortal sin and dying in a state of separation from God.
John 6:53-56 "So Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them."
Where else can I find Christ's flesh to eat? If I forsake it, then I have no life in me.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, Mike. As you've probably figured out by now, I really have no desire to get into an argument with you. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
(P.S. I'll see you in Heaven! )
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