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Well, this is just dependent on how one defines "supernatural" and really comes down to semantics, I believe.
"Supernatural" is not the same thing as "unnatural", after all.
It is typically considered above and not of the natural, as in demons, succubus, sorcerers, devils, Satan, which are imaginative but nonsense.
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He acts on pure malice. There are humans who act similarly. They have no real "goals" or "motivation" because their actions are antithetical to reason. Sin is unreasonable and irrational. That's what sin makes you do. Sin makes you stupid. Psalms and the wisdom books say as much.
That seems far too similar to our indiscriminate reptilian brain (CNS) that has no reason or rationality to it. Positing an entity of pure malice devoid of motivation is beyond silly, IMO.
Charlie and JBF desire to preach Jesus saved us on the Cross which few in the Christianity forum would reject and certainly none would consider it foolishness. Unfortunately, they are prideful and arrogant and think their interpretation of how and why Jesus died on the Cross must be accepted as the absolute truth and no other interpretation is possible or acceptable.
They even refuse to check their interpretation with the ONLY source of Truth we have about God - Jesus Christ the Word of God Himself and His revelation of God's Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness on the Cross. That is even beyond arrogance and pride all the way to stubborn and ignorant.
What you consider to be foolishness, Mystic, is the abject truth that Jesus died as a propitiation (appeasement of God's wrath against sin). This concept is substnaitated by at least three scriptures (Romans 3:25, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10).
Now, you circumvent this reality by teaching that it was the wrath of "savage ancestors" that was appeased.
But their wrath has no bearing on my life even if thre weren't a Cross.
But the wrath of a holy and just God has bearing on my life; and it also has bearing on my life that He poured out the wrath that He had against my sin on His only begotten Son instead of me; because I believe in Him and what He did for me.
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Originally Posted by Sand&Salt
More, more and more Bible quoting. Can't I get someone's OWN response????? Like Mystic and Jerwade's.
Thanks for realizing what I was after, MQ. It's a simple question. I'll rephrase:
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HOW EXACTLY did Jesus' death defeat Satan?
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Like, imagine you were trying to teach a barbaric tribe about the U.S. justice system.
We have a trial, conviction, jail, then eventual freedom or death. I can grasp that. Can anyone make the Atonement simple, or do we just shrug and say "It's an unfathomable mystery". If that's the case, OK, but let's be honest about it.
Like everyone else here on the forum, our views are just our opinions. There is no way for them to be anything else on such ineffable and inscrutable issues. You are free to believe in the supernatural, Katz. I do not. There is enough unknown in Reality of a natural source to obviate any need to posit the supernatural.
IF you can give me a rational explanation for the existence of and the goals of any such entity as a Satan whose end is divinely determined, I am all ears. But I cannot imagine what the hell (literally) any such entity would get out of what he is portrayed as seeking given his unquestioned fate.
If anyone's opinion is backed by holy scripture, it is not merely an opinion but it is the truth of God.
What you consider to be foolishness, Mystic, is the abject truth that Jesus died as a propitiation (appeasement of God's wrath against sin). . . .
I recall you having said that more than once. But Brother Justby, you hide your light under a bushel and withhold your wisdom from us in one particular regard: you never explain, even when asked directly, how you deal with an apparent inconsistency in your theory of atonement. Tell us your secret, if for no other reason than fellowship.
Here is the problem. I am sure you will agreethat history unfolds exactly as God meant for it to unfold since before he made it. So for the life of me I cannot figure out what the heck God's got to be mad about over things that happen in the world. I mean, it isn't as if he didn't see it coming and was caught unawares. No one snuck sin in by the back door unnoticed, right?
Please, what's got His drawers in such an uncomfortable wad?
Last edited by Arizona Humphrey; 09-14-2021 at 10:54 PM..
What you consider to be foolishness, Mystic, is the abject truth that Jesus died as a propitiation (appeasement of God's wrath against sin). This concept is substnaitated by at least three scriptures (Romans 3:25, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10).
Now, you circumvent this reality by teaching that it was the wrath of "savage ancestors" that was appeased.
But their wrath has no bearing on my life even if thre weren't a Cross.
But the wrath of a holy and just God has bearing on my life; and it also has bearing on my life that He poured out the wrath that He had against my sin on His only begotten Son instead of me; because I believe in Him and what He did
Jesus revealed unambiguously that God has no wrath, period! You continue to believe in it at the risk of blaspheming God's Holy Spirit.
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If anyone's opinion is backed by holy scripture, it is not merely an opinion but it is the truth of God.
Not if they have not made certain that the scripture IS holy by checking it against God's Holy Spirit as revealed by Jesus on the Cross.
After a lifetime steeped in traditional Christianity, I still don't "get it".
HOW did Jesus being condemned to the unjust death of a criminal, "fool" Satan and "free us" of our "sins"?
All the supposed explanations I've read, don't make it clear HOW exactly one caused the other. I understand it was not "transactional" and agree with that; but then WHAT was it and HOW were the powers defeated? They are still going at it, unabated, after all.
The Resurrection of course, was a major miracle, but others had been raised from the dead before, so even that wasn't entirely unique.
I still "believe" and that won't change as I know better than to rely on my own very limited understanding; the same way I "trust" science for medical and other mysteries beyond me. But I wish the whole deal made sense to me.
If anyone has some "dumbed-down" explanations and please, not just Bible verses. That won't help, but some original thought might. Thanks.
Here's the thing, According to scripture Adam condemned ALL, but according to the NT only those that believe will be saved. Considering all the other religions down through history, and the current estimates on the population of global christianity, at best 15% of all humanity through all time will be saved.
That means Adam was WAY more effective than Jesus. The apple beat the cross. Doesn't make much sense right?! Keep asking the hard questions, don't give up, the answers are NOT too loft for you, don't accept that for a second.
Here's the thing, According to scripture Adam condemned ALL, but according to the NT only those that believe will be saved. Considering all the other religions down through history, and the current estimates on the population of global christianity, at best 15% of all humanity through all time will be saved.
That means Adam was WAY more effective than Jesus. The apple beat the cross. Doesn't make much sense right?! Keep asking the hard questions, don't give up, the answers are NOT too loft for you, don't accept that for a second.
Truly; for it is written,
Mat 7:13, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Jesus revealed unambiguously that God has no wrath, period! You continue to believe in it at the risk of blaspheming God's Holy Spirit. Not if they have not made certain that the scripture IS holy by checking it against God's Holy Spirit as revealed by Jesus on the Cross.
That God has wrath and judstice (judgment) against sin is evident in all of holy scripture. And it is never blasphemy of the Spirit to believe the teachings of holy scripture.
Therefore, you are way out in left field.
Those who penned holy scripture were tested by the early church and found to be true apostles (Revelation 2:2).
If the tree is good, I consider that the fruit (the scriptures penned) is also good (Matthew 7:15-20).
You cannot refute this argument; and this argument absolutely refutes your point of view.
That is why I keep saying the same thing in response to what you keep saying.
The Lord has yet to open your eyes so that you might be able to see (see 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
I recall you having said that more than once. But Brother Justby, you hide your light under a bushel and withhold your wisdom from us in one particular regard: you never explain, even when asked directly, how you deal with an apparent inconsistency in your theory of atonement. Tell us your secret, if for no other reason than fellowship.
Here is the problem. I am sure you will agreethat history unfolds exactly as God meant for it to unfold since before he made it. So for the life of me I cannot figure out what the heck God's got to be mad about over things that happen in the world. I mean, it isn't as if he didn't see it coming and was caught unawares. No one snuck sin in by the back door unnoticed, right?
Please, what's got His drawers in such an uncomfortable wad?
Jesus is the Righteous One (1 John 2:1, Hebrews 1:8-9); and therefore He has wrath and justice (righteous judgment) concerning sin.
If anyone's opinion is backed by holy scripture, it is not merely an opinion but it is the truth of God.
You probably haven't thought that one through, but we can go over it.
No opinion ever, ever rises as high as "the truth of God". Opinions aren't equipped to do that. Opinions are models for making sense of things, but they are never equal to the things they describe. You want to put scripture on the same level as God Himself, but that isn't the point because now you go further to say that your opinions about what scripture means are the equal of God Himself.
Your opinion is the truth of God? Gosh sakes, man!
You probably haven't thought that one through, but we can go over it.
No opinion ever, ever rises as high as "the truth of God". Opinions aren't equipped to do that. Opinions are models for making sense of things, but they are never equal to the things they describe. You want to put scripture on the same level as God Himself, but that isn't the point because now you go further to say that your opinions about what scripture means are the equal of God Himself.
Your opinion is the truth of God? Gosh sakes, man!
Only inasmuch as it is the same opinion that is presented by the truth of God; which is holy scripture.
Psa 138:2, I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
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