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"Anger...is properly the name of a passion. A passion of the sensitive appetite is good in so far as it is regulated by reason, whereas it is evil if it set the order of reason aside. Now the order of reason, in regard to anger, may be considered in relation to two things. First, in relation to the appetible object to which anger tends, and that is revenge. Wherefore if one desire revenge to be taken in accordance with the order of reason, the desire of anger is praiseworthy, and is called "zealous anger". On the other hand, if one desire the taking of vengeance in any way whatever contrary to the order of reason, for instance if he desire the punishment of one who has not deserved it, or beyond his deserts, or again contrary to the order prescribed by law, or not for the due end, namely the maintaining of justice and the correction of defaults, then the desire of anger will be sinful, and this is called sinful anger." - Summa Theologiae, St. Thomas Aquinas
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Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey
Remember as best you can the naked experience of being angry. What is it about? Defeat, destroy, hurt, mock, tear down, kill. Those of us in the modern world do well to acknowledge our anger when it gets turned on and to override is quickly with reason and compassion. Even if anger alerts us to a situation that needs to be addressed, we would be wrong to let our actions be driven by its call to do cold bloodshed.
Certainly we need to be in control of our passions (anger being one of them), and not let our passions control us. Yes, it would clearly be wrong to kill someone because they made us angry. That should be obvious to all here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey
When you think about it, it is anger that is indifferent. Anger does not give one flip about the harm it does to myself, to my brother and to my world. It cares about nothing at all except it's tunnel vision focus on "I'm gonna get you".
I can't get on board with your personification of anger like that and don't see it that way. It doesn't have an independent mind or will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey
If normal and natural emotions are morally neutral, what should we say about greed, pride, lust or envy - - that they are morally neutral, too?
Those things aren't emotions.
Greed is inherently sinful because it violates the 9th and 10th commandments - it denotes covetousness, a desire for a thing that rightly belongs to another.
"Pride" can be considered an emotion, but "pride" is a word that can be used to convey wholly different meanings.
Lust is inherently sinful because it connotes a disordered sexual desire. Sexual desire is natural and good. When it becomes disordered, it becomes lust, which is always sinful.
Envy is also inherently sinful. Aquinas actually mentions envy in his section on Anger I referenced above:
"Now with regard to the passions of the soul, it is to be observed that evil may be found in them in two ways. First by reason of the passion's very species, which is derived from the passion's object. Thus envy, in respect of its species, denotes an evil, since it is displeasure at another's good, and such displeasure is in itself contrary to reason: wherefore, as the Philosopher remarks, 'the very mention of envy denotes something evil.' Now this does not apply to anger, which is the desire for revenge, since revenge may be desired both well and ill. Secondly, evil is found in a passion in respect of the passion's quantity, that is in respect of its excess or deficiency; and thus evil may be found in anger, when, to wit, one is angry, more or less than right reason demands. But if one is angry in accordance with right reason, one's anger is deserving of praise."
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Originally Posted by Arizona Humphrey
Jesus got angry because He was fully human. He had a reptile brain, just like you and me. If He didn't know what anger felt like - the loss of conscious control and a surrender to aggressive instincts, He would not have been human.
I don't know what you mean by "reptile brain"; but since Jesus had no flaws or faults, he never lost control of his passions. He experienced and felt anger, and responded to it/acted on it properly and rightly.
What is your interpretation of "how and why Jesus died on the Cross"? If you can say it simply, for me.
I do not think it is easy to do that for someone who has been indoctrinated with dogma. The misguided belief in a wrathful vengeful War God, caused our ancestors to misinterpret what Jesus accomplished. They automatically interpreted it using their belief that God's wrath is what causes everything negative that happens, including what they do. Their belief that God needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices in order to forgive us for "whatever" was used to interpret what happened to Jesus as a blood sacrifice. That is what I call the Bad News Gospel. Even the apostles' belief in a wrathful God and damnation was absolute and automatic. They could not conceive of any other God.
Because of the need to tame our savagery through the schoolmaster stage via the OT and the laws of Moses, they were conditions to fear God and damnation so that they would develop self-control over their baser urges. They were unable to perfectly follow the laws so the OT Covenant failed. Even when they had developed sufficient self-control, they were still failing ("missing the mark"= sinning). What I call the Good News Gospel is that God's Holy Spirit was incarnated in the HUMAN Jesus to solve our inability to attain perfection and to teach and show us the True Nature of God.
Because of the barbarous era in which He was born, Jesus and His teaching were rejected by the savage and brutal religious leaders and THEY demanded His scourging and crucifixion, NOT God. Jesus endured their brutality with the perfect agape love and forgiveness of God (Grace) in His human consciousness. This connected all human consciousness to the perfect agape love of God permanently saving us from separation from God and eliminating any need for us to achieve perfect agape love. His Grace (perfect agape love) covers our imperfections (sins) before God which is why God is not counting our sins against us.
His death on the Cross resulted in His PERFECT human consciousness being "born again" as the Comforter (Holy Spirit), just as all our human consciousnesses will be. As promised by Jesus, the Comforter abides with us in our consciousness to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts" so we do not need anyone to teach us. We can ignore all the wrathful interpretations in the Bad News Gospel that came from reading the OT and Moses. We can have faith in Jesus and God's agape love and forgiveness on the Cross. When we are in the states of mind of the Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness, we cannot sin. See below:
The Holy Spirit IS the True Nature of God revealed, described, and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. He IS agape love, kindness, mercy, compassion, gentleness, unconditional acceptance, empathy, sympathy, tolerance, long-suffering, decency, friendliness, peacefulness, joyfulness, understanding, care, concern, solicitude, solicitousness, sensitivity, tender-heartedness, soft-heartedness, warm-heartedness, warmth, love, brotherly love, tenderness, gentleness, mercifulness, leniency, lenience, consideration, kindness, humanity, humaneness, kind-heartedness, charity, benevolence, and He is non-judgmental.
God is supernatural, so if you believe in his existence, well....
So if Mystic doesn't believe in supernatural evil beings, what was going on at the crucifixion?
Good post, Meerkat.
Btw, I believe until modern times, every society that ever existed, believed in evil spirits. Sure, we're more educated and evolved, but that's history.
Mystic and me agree where it matters - on the highest and essential
But not on the particulars relating to the purpose, process, but it seems to me everyone disagrees or perceives things differently doctrinally by design
1Co 11:17**Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
1Co 11:18**For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co 11:19**For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1Co 11:20**When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
1Co 11:21**For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
I see a lot of symbolism in the Scriptures and now is the time where we are to understand the meaning of things collectively, in peace - not forcing each other,
Pray for All People
1Ti 2:1**I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2**For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3**For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4**Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5**For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6**Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
G2398***(Strong)
ἰÌδιος
idios
id'-ee-os
Of uncertain affinity; pertaining to self, that is, one's own; by implication private or separate: - X his acquaintance, when they were alone, apart, aside, due, his (own, proper, several), home, (her, our, thine, your) own (business), private (-ly), proper, severally, their (own).
G2540***(Strong)
καιÏοÌÏ‚
kairos
kahee-ros'
Of uncertain affinity; an occasion, that is, set or proper time: - X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare G5550.
Mystic’s area is not in any religious institution
The Baptist’s, Methodists, Anglicans, Roman Catholic, Latter Day Saint, Jehovah Witness, Pentecostals etc have each their own regional/religious “estate†that they inherited (and are consequently “named†for their part
1Co 12:4**Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5**And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6**And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7**But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8**For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9**To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10**To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11**But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
And they are being forced or encouraged to contribute their “part†of their inheritance
It seems to me if you are a Christian you already believe in the supernatural, it is the basic, integral foundation of Christianity
But it is not foundational to my understanding of the composition of our Reality who IS God. There is nothing more natural than God who IS everything. My Christian Panentheism sees God's "body" as our immanent Reality and His "consciousness" as transcendent and outside our Reality. It is the spacetime field that establishes our Reality.in His imagination.
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It seems to me you are coming from a position that is not really “open†as you have made up your mind about this issue (and many others) and it forms part of your belief system and are attached to it, while you are like that it is pointless trying to prove anything to you as you will just say ‘nope that’s not how I see it and consequently that is not how it is’ - your belief system has evolved and is pretty “set†and it developed in response/opposition to the traditional Christian views/version of Satan and who Christ is and the purpose, and is a melding together of science and spirituality, you have become just as closed minded as those you oppose, which is not a bad thing, and that is how things are set up - here everything is in opposition to each other, to give differentiation, boundaries, etc
North/south, East/west, up/down, night/day, summer/winter, gravity, time, colour, etc
I am open to rational inferences and supportable extrapolations from what is known about our Reality. The supposed works of Satan are perfectly explained by the existence of our indiscriminate reptilian brain and central nervous system (CNS). The existence of Spirits is consistent with my experiences and views but demons and devils and other such imaginative nonsense are not.
My only concession to such nonsense would be to say it is conceivable that IF (and that is a very doubtful IF) PURELY AND TOTALLY evil human consciousnesses can be "born again" as Spirits (which I seriously doubt) then they could be considered demons. I tend to believe the very process of being "born again" is of such a nature (God is our spiritual Father after all) as to preclude any such happening. It would be like expecting a human fetus to develop into a non-human.
But it is not foundational to my understanding of the composition of our Reality who IS God. There is nothing more natural than God who IS everything. My Christian Panentheism sees God's "body" as our immanent Reality and His "consciousness" as transcendent and outside our Reality. It is the spacetime field that establishes our Reality.in His imagination. I am open to rational inferences and supportable extrapolations from what is known about our Reality. The supposed works of Satan are perfectly explained by the existence of our indiscriminate reptilian brain and central nervous system (CNS). The existence of Spirits is consistent with my experiences and views but demons and devils and other such imaginative nonsense are not.
My only concession to such nonsense would be to say it is conceivable that IF (and that is a very doubtful IF) PURELY AND TOTALLY evil human consciousnesses can be "born again" as Spirits (which I seriously doubt) then they could be considered demons. I tend to believe the very process of being "born again" is of such a nature (God is our spiritual Father after all) as to preclude any such happening. It would be like expecting a human fetus to develop into a non-human.
There is a middle layer which you do not think of - which is ok
What I see is that middle religious and political environment is what is being referred to in Scripture, they are the “gods†of the nations, and also the “devils†and they collectively do have power and dominion but that power is limited and an accounting is to be given for what they have done and are doing
There is a gathering together that has power, both for good and bad
The design is the good is never limited, the evil/bad is limited to 3 or 4 generations
Exo 20:5**Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6**And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
I read something today that I thought was very helpful, and I just wanted to share it. It comes from The Life of Christ by Emile Le Camus and is in the public domain:
"Every one that admits the existence of a personal God, Creator of the world and Father of our humanity, must also admit, not only the possibility, but, in view of the fall of man, even the probability and the almost reasonable necessity of the direct manifestation of that God here below. For when the Creator calls a being into life, He does so for His own glory; now this glory consists in finding the reflection of His own goodness in that being. Thus, by a first general law, He decreed that all created things, deriving their being from Him, sustained by His concurrence, and, as a consequence, adorned with His goodness, should inevitably glorify Him, whether in the lower order of their material existence, or in the gradual development of their animal life. This, however, was not sufficient to complete the harmony of the divine plan. This latter seemed to need for its climax a being of a higher order who, resembling more closely the Author of the universe Himself, would remind us more sensibly of His royal independence. Therefore by a second, particular law, man received the perilous prerogative of choosing between good and evil. But in creating this new and sublime element, free will, as a means of supreme glorification in the universe, God faced the danger inherent in this awful experiment. To place at the head of creation a pontiff who should sum up and spiritualise in his soul the unconscious hymn of the universe, was to risk the introduction of a usurper who might make himself an idol, and by his revolt disturb the universal harmony, instead of assuring its final perfection by his filial adoration.
The danger would produce merit, and merit give rise to glory. If man made wise use of his liberty, the divine master-work would be perfect, expanding in all its primal beauty, giving homage to its framer. If he employed it for evil ends, it would be sullied, profaned, destroyed. God, however, had still the power to restore it, vesting Himself, in this reparation, with a glory greater yet than that of the first creation.
It is the latter alternative that has come to pass. Serious philosophy has not doubted the fall of man. Hence God has had the work of raising us up again. He could not do it by an act of His omnipotence without injury to the moral compound which is the distinguishing characteristic and honour of our nature. To do violence to our free will would not have proved the restoration of humanity, but rather its annihilation. It was only by means of a slow, gradual process of persuasion that He was to lead back His erring and rebellious children."
"In vain had He essayed it in the universal lessons He had given to human reason, pleading with man, now in the depths of his conscience, now beneath the transparent and changeful veil of creatures. The passions, the vices overwhelmed His voice; and, blinded in obstinacy, man refused to acknowledge the signs. No one of the sages of the Orient, of Greece or of Rome was eloquent enough to force the human race to lift its head and look toward heaven. In vain had God spoken to His privileged people beneath the tents of the patriarchs, amid the thunders of Sinai, and in the woes of exile by human voices which He inspired. Nothing had been changed on earth: sin remaining at all times almost universal, the glory of the Creator was plainly compromised. There was but one more trial to make, and that incomparably sublime and decisive. Since the world would not go to God, God had only to come to the world, and there establishing Himself in the midst of His rebellious creatures He could dwell a member of this lost humanity and a living sign which some might deny, but none lose sight of. By Him was to be restored the balance of the scales which our liberty thenceforward moves up or down at will. As counter-weight to the evil concupiscence, found in the very nature of man, God, indeed, had only to grant His grace, that is. His light. His strength, an intimate communication of His own life."
"Jesus means Savior. His very name bespeaks the infinite love which He bears for us. We are to understand that He is a Savior whose works are of infinite value, whose authority is unlimited, and whose fondest desire is to reconcile us with His Father and to make us His coheirs to the kingdom of heaven. 'O Lord, our Lord, how wonderful is Thy name!' (Ps. 8:2) Truly wonderful is His name, for it shields us from the wrath of an angry God, and by it we may ask for light and grace and virtue. 'O Lord, our Lord, how wonderful is Thy name!' This is the name of the eternal high priest Who became man for us. This is He Who offered upon the altar of the cross, and offers daily on the altars of our churches, the only sacrifice that is entirely pleasing to the Father. This is He Who by reason of His humanity can offer sacrifice in the name of man, and Who by reason of His divinity can offer a sacrifice worthy of the majesty of God. This is He Who, by uniting the divine nature and human nature in Himself, can so elevate the degraded nature of men that they may hope to participate in the divine life and enjoy the majesty of God." - Fr. Benedict Baur (1877-1963)
After a lifetime steeped in traditional Christianity, I still don't "get it".
HOW did Jesus being condemned to the unjust death of a criminal, "fool" Satan and "free us" of our "sins"?
All the supposed explanations I've read, don't make it clear HOW exactly one caused the other. I understand it was not "transactional" and agree with that; but then WHAT was it and HOW were the powers defeated? They are still going at it, unabated, after all.
The Resurrection of course, was a major miracle, but others had been raised from the dead before, so even that wasn't entirely unique.
I still "believe" and that won't change as I know better than to rely on my own very limited understanding; the same way I "trust" science for medical and other mysteries beyond me. But I wish the whole deal made sense to me.
If anyone has some "dumbed-down" explanations and please, not just Bible verses. That won't help, but some original thought might. Thanks.
I can definitely do "dumb", And I promise, no quoting of scripture.
I imagine Jesus saying to those who ask:
"It's really not about good and bad. Or right and wrong....It's about how much I love you"
When we understand that to our core; we are compelled in our feeble copycat way, to love others.
And He smiles.
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