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Charlie and JBF desire to preach Jesus saved us on the Cross which few in the Christianity forum would reject and certainly none would consider it foolishness. Unfortunately, they are prideful and arrogant and think their interpretation of how and why Jesus died on the Cross must be accepted as the absolute truth and no other interpretation is possible or acceptable.
It's the lens of their rote learning that doesn't allow for anything else.
Everyone knows the recitations; the OP's question is to ask exactly what does the Atonement mean. It was a good question, and responses like the above do nothing to enlighten but rather only serve as a vain action for one to proudly show off what a great Christian one thinks one is.
More, more and more Bible quoting. Can't I get someone's OWN response????? Like Mystic and Jerwade's.
Thanks for realizing what I was after, MQ. It's a simple question. I'll rephrase:
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HOW EXACTLY did Jesus' death defeat Satan?
____________________________________________
Like, imagine you were trying to teach a barbaric tribe about the U.S. justice system.
We have a trial, conviction, jail, then eventual freedom or death. I can grasp that. Can anyone make the Atonement simple, or do we just shrug and say "It's an unfathomable mystery". If that's the case, OK, but let's be honest about it.
More, more and more Bible quoting. Can't I get someone's OWN response????? Like Mystic and Jerwade's.
Thanks for realizing what I was after, MQ. It's a simple question. I'll rephrase:
_____________________________________________
HOW EXACTLY did Jesus' death defeat Satan?
____________________________________________
Like, imagine you were trying to teach a barbaric tribe about the U.S. justice system.
We have a trial, conviction, jail, then eventual freedom or death. I can grasp that. Can anyone make the Atonement simple, or do we just shrug and say "It's an unfathomable mystery". If that's the case, OK, but let's be honest about it.
It was Jesus’ resurrection that defeated Satan and death. His death paid the price for our sins, to satisfy God’s judgement. Now we can live forever by faith in Christ.
More, more and more Bible quoting. Can't I get someone's OWN response????? Like Mystic and Jerwade's.
Thanks for realizing what I was after, MQ. It's a simple question. I'll rephrase:
_____________________________________________
HOW EXACTLY did Jesus' death defeat Satan?
____________________________________________
Like, imagine you were trying to teach a barbaric tribe about the U.S. justice system.
We have a trial, conviction, jail, then eventual freedom or death. I can grasp that. Can anyone make the Atonement simple, or do we just shrug and say "It's an unfathomable mystery". If that's the case, OK, but let's be honest about it.
Mankind was in slavery to sin and death because of Adam's choice to reject God's Goodness. Adam's sin being infinitely bad in its gravity and scope, and man being finite and broken; we were unable to atone for Adam's sin, as hard as some of us may have tried through animal sacrifices and other means. No matter what we did, we were unable to atone because ultimately only God is worthy of God.
God, out of no obligation but purely out of His love for us, decided to take on human flesh and be born of a virgin woman in the Person of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Jesus lived a life of perfect sacrifice. His Will was perfectly aligned with and in submission to the Will of His Father. Jesus was willing to submit to His Father's Will even to the point of a cruel and excruciating death on a cross. A fitting death for the Second Adam in that the first Adam sinned by eating of the tree; now the Second Adam was to die by being fastened to a tree.
This perfect offering of self-sacrificial love offered up by Christ in perfect obedience to the Father was more pleasing to the Father than all of the combined sins of mankind were displeasing. This perfect sacrificial act merited an infinite reward and a superabundance of salvific grace that the Son could now bestow on anyone He so chooses out of the superabundance of His own merit.
Seriously though, Sand&Salt, we're all just a bunch of anonymous schlubs on the internet.
How about reading some people who really know what they're talking about (Anselm, Thomas Aquinas, etc) like the ones I linked to in this post?
More, more and more Bible quoting. Can't I get someone's OWN response????? Like Mystic and Jerwade's.
Thanks for realizing what I was after, MQ. It's a simple question. I'll rephrase:
_____________________________________________
HOW EXACTLY did Jesus' death defeat Satan?
____________________________________________
Like, imagine you were trying to teach a barbaric tribe about the U.S. justice system.
We have a trial, conviction, jail, then eventual freedom or death. I can grasp that. Can anyone make the Atonement simple, or do we just shrug and say "It's an unfathomable mystery". If that's the case, OK, but let's be honest about it.
I thought I did that in post #6 and I didn't quote the Bible even once.
Mankind was in slavery to sin and death because of Adam's choice to reject God's Goodness. Adam's sin being infinitely bad in its gravity and scope, and man being finite and broken; we were unable to atone for Adam's sin, as hard as some of us may have tried through animal sacrifices and other means. No matter what we did, we were unable to atone because ultimately only God is worthy of God.
God, out of no obligation but purely out of His love for us, decided to take on human flesh and be born of a virgin woman in the Person of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Jesus lived a life of perfect sacrifice. His Will was perfectly aligned with and in submission to the Will of His Father. Jesus was willing to submit to His Father's Will even to the point of a cruel and excruciating death on a cross. A fitting death for the Second Adam in that the first Adam sinned by eating of the tree; now the Second Adam was to die by being fastened to a tree.
This perfect offering of self-sacrificial love offered up by Christ in perfect obedience to the Father was more pleasing to the Father than all of the combined sins of mankind were displeasing. This perfect sacrificial act merited an infinite reward and a superabundance of salvific grace that the Son could now bestow on anyone He so chooses out of the superabundance of His own merit.
Seriously though, Sand&Salt, we're all just a bunch of anonymous schlubs on the internet.
How about reading some people who really know what they're talking about (Anselm, Thomas Aquinas, etc) like the ones I linked to in this post?
Thanks for your thoughtful post, but it still reads to me as "WHAT happened". I know what happened and have all my life. I want to know HOW this incredible thing God/Jesus did, accomplished Satan's defeat.
But it sounds like it is just beyond my understanding, as are the texts you linked to. I even finished the 700 page tome "Crucifixion of the Warrior God"---an academic read---and it answered nothing either. That I could comprehend.
All my life I have struggled to "make sense" of Christianity and I'm no closer now than as an agnostic.
Very frustrating. I just accept that most deep concepts are above my comprehension. OK, I tried!
Thanks for your thoughtful post, but it still reads to me as "WHAT happened". I know what happened and have all my life. I want to know HOW this incredible thing God/Jesus did, accomplished Satan's defeat.
But it sounds like it is just beyond my understanding, as are the texts you linked to. I even finished the 700 page tome "Crucifixion of the Warrior God"---an academic read---and it answered nothing either. That I could comprehend.
All my life I have struggled to "make sense" of Christianity and I'm no closer now than as an agnostic.
Very frustrating. I just accept that most deep concepts are above my comprehension. OK, I tried!
There have been many theories as to the "how" over the centuries, and it's certainly a very complicated topic. There's also no definite dogmatic answer, as even the Catholic Church allows some degree of varying opinion.
Mankind was redeemed because Jesus Christ was a True Man and did what no other man could do; live a life of perfect obedience and submission to the Will of God, even to the point of death on a cross. Christ merited for mankind what no other man could. That's why in His perfect obedience unto death, he merited reward not only for Himself but for every man.
If you do get a chance to read the Anselm link though (Cur Deus Homo), I'd highly recommend it, as, just speaking personally, much of it was very helpful to me. You could probably even just skip Book 1 and start at Book 2.
Thanks for your thoughtful post, but it still reads to me as "WHAT happened". I know what happened and have all my life. I want to know HOW this incredible thing God/Jesus did, accomplished Satan's defeat.
But it sounds like it is just beyond my understanding, as are the texts you linked to. I even finished the 700 page tome "Crucifixion of the Warrior God"---an academic read---and it answered nothing either. That I could comprehend.
All my life I have struggled to "make sense" of Christianity and I'm no closer now than as an agnostic.
Very frustrating. I just accept that most deep concepts are above my comprehension. OK, I tried!
Maybe you need to put this question to the side at this stage, and focus on related topics like who/what is Satan - what I find with me is it is not as simple as having a question and then someone giving me a direct answer, I have found I need to have other bits of knowledge first before other parts will fit into place. Another thing I have found for me it is a necessary thing to not judge the people offering the information, but to keep focused on what information I need for my understanding and not get caught up in other people conflicts with each other, for me there has been a lot of groundwork that needs to happen before the understanding/comprehension actually takes place for me.
I find I need to take it one step at a time, and persevere as understanding is a process that takes a lot of time and preparation
More, more and more Bible quoting. Can't I get someone's OWN response????? Like Mystic and Jerwade's.
Thanks for realizing what I was after, MQ. It's a simple question. I'll rephrase:
_________________________________________
HOW EXACTLY did Jesus' death defeat Satan?
____________________________________________
Sand&Salt, As long as you believe there is a supernatural entity called Satan there can be no answer for you because no such entity exists. But the undisputed ruler of the animal kingdom (the Prince of this world) IS the reptilian brain (CNS). All animate life with a central nervous system has this or its equivalent that is the source of all its survival drives. It provides the competitive survival impetus for food and the pleasure-seeking and pain avoidance common to all animate life. It is what the Serpent in Eden allegorically refers to because it independently determines what it indiscriminately wants and does not want irrespective of what our acquired consciousness and knowledge might want.
Thus, the serpent's automatic desire in the garden for what was forbidden provided the first lesson that we must discriminate for our internal serpent because it is not capable of it. That is the adversary to our spirit we have to overcome on our journey to learn what to allow and what to deny our internal serpent to achieve eternal life even if it violates our survival drive. That is what Jesus achieved. Complete domination over the internal serpent (Satan) even while enduring horrendous scourging and crucifixion that violated His survival drive. That is how He defeated Satan (internal serpent).
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