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After a lifetime steeped in traditional Christianity, I still don't "get it".
HOW did Jesus being condemned to the unjust death of a criminal, "fool" Satan and "free us" of our "sins"?
All the supposed explanations I've read, don't make it clear HOW exactly one caused the other. I understand it was not "transactional" and agree with that; but then WHAT was it and HOW were the powers defeated? They are still going at it, unabated, after all.
The Resurrection of course, was a major miracle, but others had been raised from the dead before, so even that wasn't entirely unique.
I still "believe" and that won't change as I know better than to rely on my own very limited understanding; the same way I "trust" science for medical and other mysteries beyond me. But I wish the whole deal made sense to me.
If anyone has some "dumbed-down" explanations and please, not just Bible verses. That won't help, but some original thought might. Thanks.
After a lifetime steeped in traditional Christianity, I still don't "get it".
HOW did Jesus being condemned to the unjust death of a criminal, "fool" Satan and "free us" of our "sins"?
All the supposed explanations I've read, don't make it clear HOW exactly one caused the other. I understand it was not "transactional" and agree with that; but then WHAT was it and HOW were the powers defeated? They are still going at it, unabated, after all.
The Resurrection of course, was a major miracle, but others had been raised from the dead before, so even that wasn't entirely unique.
I still "believe" and that won't change as I know better than to rely on my own very limited understanding; the same way I "trust" science for medical and other mysteries beyond me. But I wish the whole deal made sense to me.
If anyone has some "dumbed-down" explanations and please, not just Bible verses. That won't help, but some original thought might. Thanks.
Maybe this will help you?
The wisdom of God devised a way for the love of God to deliver sinners from the wrath of God while not compromising the righteousness of God. -John Piper, author of “Desiring God”
After a lifetime steeped in traditional Christianity, I still don't "get it".
HOW did Jesus being condemned to the unjust death of a criminal, "fool" Satan and "free us" of our "sins"?
All the supposed explanations I've read, don't make it clear HOW exactly one caused the other. I understand it was not "transactional" and agree with that; but then WHAT was it and HOW were the powers defeated? They are still going at it, unabated, after all.
The Resurrection of course, was a major miracle, but others had been raised from the dead before, so even that wasn't entirely unique.
I still "believe" and that won't change as I know better than to rely on my own very limited understanding; the same way I "trust" science for medical and other mysteries beyond me. But I wish the whole deal made sense to me.
If anyone has some "dumbed-down" explanations and please, not just Bible verses. That won't help, but some original thought might. Thanks.
This probably won’t make sense to many people but it is my thoughts
It has to do with who that Satan is, and I believe Satan has been developing in time, so to speak
And also what/where traditional Christianity is looking to
How I see it is there are many different layers
The spiritual “celestial” “unlimited” source of all (God) doesn’t have physical laws of time/space, and that is how/where the beginning/end can be known/foretold - all living things do have connection to that but it is limited by our containment in this dimension, by being part of the creation we are limited/bound by it (and under its dominion/laws).
The Scriptures are specific about which layers they relate to, and it’s not about the individual level it is about the assembly/gathering which also has “soul” “life”, and also not strictly about past “time” -they are essentially prophetic, inspired and had/have specific, ordained, appointed times embedded in them, that are symbolised - and the same symbols are used in all sacred, theological, philosophical writings- it is those that are to be compared at that higher level, the symbols, allegory, stories in both “testaments” refer to the kingdom of God that unfolds in “time” but the Christian is to be aware of their attachment to the “highest” which is of the intellectual, sensual, invisible which transcends this world/age which is essentially generational/earthly
What happens is that particular part of the invisible/rational creation takes their eyes off the faith, hope, love which is about that very highest level which is instructed to look at its maker and “the world to come” however it focuses on the temporal and generational that is happening now or in the past and desires it’s own things now being greedy, domineering, inflexible, unmerciful in outlook, hoping to get what they have not worked for
The “atonement” is at that higher level which is above the individual and lower than the unlimited/unbound
Adam & Eve died the day they sinned in the spirit realm. God is Spirit. After that man has ever since been separated from God. No communion.
Man and God have been apart
This separated state is death
Death is caused by sin
Sin is transmitted via blood (genetically) through all the generations without escape. Sin in life demands a wage; that is death. Death of the flesh and worse still death in the spirit.
The breaking of this rule of sin and death requires a sacrifice of pure sinless blood (Jesus) in the place of all. All cultures have this rule in their ancient Scriptures. Ex. Rig Veda ch.90-Prajapathi: Jesus fulfilled each and every one of the criteria for the perfect sacrifice that can unite man back to God. Including the rule that the bones of the sacrificial creature must not be broken and that the creature must come back to life etc..
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Jesus on the cross put man and God back together. Through Jesus we have communion with God once more.
At one ment
Made one / that which makes one
Atonement
Romans 5:10-11
10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
After a lifetime steeped in traditional Christianity, I still don't "get it".
HOW did Jesus being condemned to the unjust death of a criminal, "fool" Satan and "free us" of our "sins"?
All the supposed explanations I've read, don't make it clear HOW exactly one caused the other. I understand it was not "transactional" and agree with that; but then WHAT was it and HOW were the powers defeated? They are still going at it, unabated, after all.
The Resurrection of course, was a major miracle, but others had been raised from the dead before, so even that wasn't entirely unique.
I still "believe" and that won't change as I know better than to rely on my own very limited understanding; the same way I "trust" science for medical and other mysteries beyond me. But I wish the whole deal made sense to me.
If anyone has some "dumbed-down" explanations and please, not just Bible verses. That won't help, but some original thought might. Thanks.
The apostle Paul tells us that "the wages of sin is death." This goes all the way back to Adam and Eve.
God told them, if you eat of this tree you shall surely die! "The wages of sin is death."
This is not only a physical death it is a spiritual death, separation from God!
In that Satan tricked man into believing him and disobeying God, with sin reaping death spiritually, and man being separated from God, Satan is now the father of man until the rebirth.
John 8:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
The plain truth is that you belong to Satan until you are born again and enter into the family of God! Your destination is the destination of your father, whether it be God or Satan. Spiritual life eternal, or spiritual death eternal.
When Jesus Christ died on that Cross and rose from the dead, He defeated the hold of death, the death from the wages of sin. Meaning, man is set free from the bondage of Satan through his sin by faith in what Christ has done for us.
This is the victory Christ has won for us, the opportunity to be set free from our condemning sins by faith.
Satan is defeated, he has lost his ownership of man, but only the man that places faith in Christ for what he has done.
Rev. 1:18
"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
Satan no longer has the power to hold the man/woman who places faith in His victory over Satan!
After a lifetime steeped in traditional Christianity, I still don't "get it".
HOW did Jesus being condemned to the unjust death of a criminal, "fool" Satan and "free us" of our "sins"?
All the supposed explanations I've read, don't make it clear HOW exactly one caused the other. I understand it was not "transactional" and agree with that; but then WHAT was it and HOW were the powers defeated? They are still going at it, unabated, after all.
The Resurrection of course, was a major miracle, but others had been raised from the dead before, so even that wasn't entirely unique.
I still "believe" and that won't change as I know better than to rely on my own very limited understanding; the same way I "trust" science for medical and other mysteries beyond me. But I wish the whole deal made sense to me.
If anyone has some "dumbed-down" explanations and please, not just Bible verses. That won't help, but some original thought might. Thanks.
The simplest way I can put it is that as the sinless and perfect man, Jesus was qualified to take the punishment for our sins that was due us. The penalty for, or the wages of sin is spiritual death which is separation from God. The sins of the entire human race throughout all of human history were imputed to Jesus as he hung on the cross and judged. While in contact with our sins the human nature of Jesus was separated from God the Father. Since Jesus took the penalty for our sins those sins can no longer be a barrier between man and God.
Jesus is both eternal God and fully man. While Jesus died spiritually for our sins as a man, because he is also God his spiritual death as a man had infinite worth so that his spiritual death paid in full the payment for the sins of mankind.
As for the resurrection, only Jesus has as yet been resurrected never to die again. All other instances of people being raised from the dead were only temporary. They all died again in their mortal bodies. Only Jesus' body was transformed into an immortal and incorruptible body when he was raised from the dead.
Regarding the powers being defeated, Jesus' resurrection defeated death and Satan no longer has any legal claim over mankind. Whenever a person places his trust in Jesus he is transferred from Satan's kingdom into the kingdom of God. While Satan is still active in the world, his time is short and his fate is sealed. At the proper time he will be sent into the lake of fire together with his angels and unregenerate mankind.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-12-2021 at 02:29 PM..
As a fellow pilgrim, I don't understand atonement theology either. I don't reject it - - how can you reject what you don't understand? The standard, orthodox explanations of it make no sense, either rationally or morally. I'm not going to review the arguments because you already know why they fail. Each theory demands pain for pain, blood for blood. It is difficult to think about atonement in those terms while reading the Sermon on the Mount.
Even if the mainstream theories about atonement are wrong or incomplete, it is impossible to deny that there is great evil in the world and in ourselves; and damn it, we don't know what to do about it. I take it as an article of faith that God does know what to do about it. I don't understand the solution, but God does. For a Christian, that means that in some mysterious way the death of Christ on the cross, whether mythologically or factually, is key to God's solution.
Religions are mysteries. One who understands his religion doesn't understand his religion. That doesn't mean that religion gets to be rationally or morally absurd. We reject such things, like the ungodly theories we hear about atonement. The correct answer will not be irrational. Pretty sure, though, that it will be non-rational. Sorry I can't be more clear than that, but I'm in the dark, too. Let me know if you find out any more about it, will you?
Last edited by Arizona Humphrey; 09-12-2021 at 03:32 PM..
The simplest way I can put it is that as the sinless and perfect man, Jesus was qualified to take the punishment for our sins that was due us. The penalty for, or the wages of sin is spiritual death which is separation from God. The sins of the entire human race throughout all of human history were imputed to Jesus as he hung on the cross and judged. While in contact with our sins the human nature of Jesus was separated from God the Father. Since Jesus took the penalty for our sins those sins can no longer be a barrier between man and God.
If I understand you correctly, the sins of some people have to paid-for twice: Once when the Lord bore the penalty for all sinners, and then again when a certain sinner burns. How is this double penalty incurred?
After a lifetime steeped in traditional Christianity, I still don't "get it".
HOW did Jesus being condemned to the unjust death of a criminal, "fool" Satan and "free us" of our "sins"?
All the supposed explanations I've read, don't make it clear HOW exactly one caused the other. I understand it was not "transactional" and agree with that; but then WHAT was it and HOW were the powers defeated? They are still going at it, unabated, after all.
The Resurrection of course, was a major miracle, but others had been raised from the dead before, so even that wasn't entirely unique.
I still "believe" and that won't change as I know better than to rely on my own very limited understanding; the same way I "trust" science for medical and other mysteries beyond me. But I wish the whole deal made sense to me.
If anyone has some "dumbed-down" explanations and please, not just Bible verses. That won't help, but some original thought might. Thanks.
Welcome to our limited understanding. Without His opening of eyes and heart, we will continue to dwell in our wee thoughts of limited.
The conversion of absolute impossibilities to limitless possibilities breaks with each new experience of uplift in Him.
"The moment God is figured out with nice neat lines and definitions, we are no longer dealing with God." ~Rob Bell
If I understand you correctly, the sins of some people have to paid-for twice: Once when the Lord bore the penalty for all sinners, and then again when a certain sinner burns. How is this double penalty incurred?
No, you do not understand me correctly. We are not judged for our sins because Jesus paid the penalty for them.
The reason that anyone goes to the lake of fire (the 'fire' is not necessarily literal by the way) is not because of their sins but because since they didn't receive Jesus as Savior they never received the imputation of Jesus' perfect righteousness and therefore have only their own imperfect righteousness to stand on at the great white throne judgment and that does not qualify them to have an eternal relationship with God. Therefore they will spend the eternal future separated spiritually from God.
Jesus having died for our sins does not give us a perfect righteousness. We must be credited with the perfect righteousness of Jesus as per Romans chapters 3-5. And that occurs the moment we trust in Jesus for eternal life.
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