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Because Mary had a sin nature just like everyone else. She was not immaculate (well, I'm sure she bathed regularly ). She was not preserved from sin. She was just an ordinary human being through whom Jesus came into the world. She was in the line of David and she lived at that time in history when Jesus was to incarnate. And so she was chosen to be the woman to give birth to Jesus, not because there was anything special about her.
I understand your view, but it doesn't really answer my questions.
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
Probably all Christian sects have some nutty beliefs. Mary Idolatry is one of the nutty beliefs that belong to Roman Catholicism.
Idolatry is a grave evil, and not a mere "nutty belief" to be shrugged off.
Because Mary had a sin nature just like everyone else. She was not immaculate (well, I'm sure she bathed regularly ). She was not preserved from sin. She was just an ordinary human being through whom Jesus came into the world. She was in the line of David and she lived at that time in history when Jesus was to incarnate. And so she was chosen to be the woman to give birth to Jesus, not because there was anything special about her.
Probably all Christian sects have some nutty beliefs. Mary Idolatry is one of the nutty beliefs that belong to Roman Catholicism.
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
I understand your view, but it doesn't really answer my questions.
I think I answered it quite well.
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Idolatry is a grave evil, and not a mere "nutty belief" to be shrugged off.
Very well. Mary Idolatry is one of the grave evils of Roman Catholicism.
One would never know by what was taught by the nuns in our school. In fact, Mary worship was the primary focus.
Just sayin'. It may not be official policy of the church, but for a kid going to school, it sure seemed that way.
Of course children are not the ones to ask about what a religion teaches. They haven't learned it all yet and they may have got some things wrong. But this reminds me that many years ago when I was no older than 20 or 21, I was teaching in an area where almost everyone was Roman Catholic. I asked some younger kids, say 10-12 years old, if it was true that RCs prayed to Mary, and if so, why.
They replied that they prayed to Mary because she wasn't "scary" like God and more like their mom. If you really want something, they said, it's better to ask your mom, because she'll be nice and probably say yes. You don't ask your dad, because he might get mad and will probably say no.
Now, these kids probably had it all wrong, but I doubt they just entirely made this up either. Someone somewhere had given them the impression that God and Mary are about equally powerful, but Mary is more "approachable" and more likely to grant requests.
One would never know by what was taught by the nuns in our school. In fact, Mary worship was the primary focus.
Just sayin'. It may not be official policy of the church, but for a kid going to school, it sure seemed that way.
Do you consider imitating Mary's ways to be worshipping her?
She certainly had to be doing something right for God graced her to the full - κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitōmenē),
and found favor in her, even prior to her being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, and conceiving of Christ within her!
Of course children are not the ones to ask about what a religion teaches. They haven't learned it all yet and they may have got some things wrong. But this reminds me that many years ago when I was no older than 20 or 21, I was teaching in an area where almost everyone was Roman Catholic. I asked some younger kids, say 10-12 years old, if it was true that RCs prayed to Mary, and if so, why.
They replied that they prayed to Mary because she wasn't "scary" like God and more like their mom. If you really want something, they said, it's better to ask your mom, because she'll be nice and probably say yes. You don't ask your dad, because he might get mad and will probably say no.
Now, these kids probably had it all wrong, but I doubt they just entirely made this up either. Someone somewhere had given them the impression that God and Mary are about equally powerful, but Mary is more "approachable" and more likely to grant requests.
Heh heh, that's cute.
You're misunderstanding though. Mary does not have God-like powers to grant requests. She is in the very throne room of God Himself and is in a position to petition Her Son personally. That's why we ask for her intercession.
Think about it. Would you be more likely to grant the request of a distant acquaintance or of your own mother?
When Solomon became King and his brother wanted to make a request of him, he didn't ask Solomon directly. He asked Solomon's mother (1 Kings 2:13-18).
You're misunderstanding though. Mary does not have God-like powers to grant requests. She is in the very throne room of God Himself and is in a position to petition Her Son personally. That's why we ask for her intercession.
Think about it. Would you be more likely to grant the request of a distant acquaintance or of your own mother?
That's not convincing to me.
First of all, I don't consider that Christians are "distant acquaintances" of God. God knows each one of us personally, loves us and sent his Son for us.
Secondly, His Son, Jesus, taught us to pray directly to the Father (i.e. the Lord's Prayer) in His name (John 14:13, John 16:23, et al.)
We are told that Jesus is the only mediator or intercessor between God and man (I Timothy 2:5).
These are very clear teachings. If I have a need, the Bible teaches me to go straight to God with my request (Hebrews 4:16). Not to his mother nor any one else. I don't believe that the prayer of one person has more "pull" than the prayer of another.
By the way, the one time the Bible mentions someone openly venerating Mary, Jesus shut her down. (Luke 11:27-28).
First of all, I don't consider that Christians are "distant acquaintances" of God. God knows each one of us personally, loves us and sent his Son for us.
Secondly, His Son, Jesus, taught us to pray directly to the Father (i.e. the Lord's Prayer) in His name (John 14:13, John 16:23, et al.)
We are told that Jesus is the only mediator or intercessor between God and man (I Timothy 2:5).
These are very clear teachings. If I have a need, the Bible teaches me to go straight to God with my request (Hebrews 4:16). Not to his mother nor any one else.
We don't deny any of this.
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Originally Posted by saibot
I don't believe that the prayer of one person has more "pull" than the prayer of another.
That's not a Biblical view. James 5:16 says that the prayers of the righteous are very powerful. Who is more righteous than those who are already in heaven and in the presence of God?
Right after Jesus teaches his disciples the Lord's Prayer, in Luke 11:5-13 Jesus teaches his disciples more deeply about prayer, specifically in verse 8, about even being impudent in prayer!
I wonder if you have any objections to Christians praying together in groups for each other's needs, or of one believer asking another believer for prayer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot
By the way, the one time the Bible mentions someone openly venerating Mary, Jesus shut her down. (Luke 11:27-28).
The angel Gabriel also venerates Mary in his greeting to her.
I don't see Jesus "shutting her down" here at all. I agree with the commentator here:
"Christ does not say that His mother is not blessed, as Calvin would have us believe, but only that they are more blessed who hear the word of God and keep it, i.e. fulfil its precepts. Because to be the mother of God is a grace and free gift of God, but external, and therefore not of necessity acting upon the soul, but to hear and keep the word is an internal grace, finding acceptance in the sight of God. Again, to be the mother of God does not absolutely ensure everlasting happiness, but to keep God’s word up to death has the sure promise of eternal life. And further, to be the mother of God is, of necessity, the blessing of one virgin only, but to hear and keep the word of God, a privilege common to all believers.
Christ therefore would encourage the woman who had addressed Him. Thou callest My mother blessed, and sorrowest that so great a privilege has not fallen to thy lot, but I offer thee a better and more lasting blessing, if thou wilt hear My word, and keep My commandments. For My mother was blessed more because she acknowledged My divinity than because she conceived Me in her womb, nay more, because, had she not recognised the purpose of God and been obedient unto His word, she would have been accounted unworthy to have become the mother of His Son; and so S, Augustine says, “The near relationship of mother would not have profited Mary had she not conceived Christ in her heart as well as in her womb. For she was more blessed in her faith than in her conception.”
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). She was not preserved from sin. She was just an ordinary human being through whom Jesus came into the world. She was in the line of David and she lived at that time in history when Jesus was to incarnate. And so she was chosen to be the woman to give birth to Jesus, not because there was anything special about her.
