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I don't believe in evolution, but I don't subscribe to the OP's reasoning either. I think it's clear that God has created all things for His own purpose and His own pleasure. Rev 4:11. That includes all the evil in the world, which He ordained beforehand. Daniel 4:35:
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
The OP's reasoning is philosophically and biblically unsound. It is philosophically unsound, given God's omnipotence and omniscience, to suppose that anything could happen that He did not will or intend. But He has brought it about because His purpose from before the foundation of the world is to save His people. And the Bible supports me on this, in verses such as the ones I've cited, and I can cite more.
The first part of the first sentence: "God knew from eternity past that man would not be able to measure up to his perfect standards"
Now, I don't have a problem saying that God knew from eternity past that mankind would fall (whether through a literal Adam or otherwise); but from my point of view that's very different from saying that mankind is literally and constitutionally incapable of measuring up.
That's where I'd like to see some historical grounding; someone else teaching something to that affect, the earlier the better.
I think what my struggle here really boils down to is that I can't see how the problem of evil is reconciled in an evolutionary paradigm. How do you reconcile it?
If mankind was capable of measuring up to God's perfect standard there would have been no need to impute the perfect righteousness of Jesus to those who receive Christ as Savior. In fact, there would have been no need for Jesus to go to the cross. God could have just said that those who do measure up to his perfect standards would be with him forever and those who don't can go to hell. Romans chapters 3-5 pretty well explains the issue of righteousness.
Evolution has nothing to do with the problem of evil. Evil exists because of both angelic and human volition and the fact that God allows angelic and human volition to function. For angelic and human volition to exist God has to allow both sin and evil in the world.
I don't believe in evolution, but I don't subscribe to the OP's reasoning either. I think it's clear that God has created all things for His own purpose and His own pleasure. Rev 4:11. That includes all the evil in the world, which He ordained beforehand. Daniel 4:35:
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
The OP's reasoning is philosophically and biblically unsound. It is philosophically unsound, given God's omnipotence and omniscience, to suppose that anything could happen that He did not will or intend. But He has brought it about because His purpose from before the foundation of the world is to save His people. And the Bible supports me on this, in verses such as the ones I've cited, and I can cite more.
But you are right that evolution is false.
No, he isn't and neither are you. Evolution can be seen in operation which means that it is a reality.
No, he isn't and neither are you. Evolution can be seen in operation which means that it is a reality.
The only thing that can be seen is bounded variation within kinds (which I do believe is a design feature). God said things will bring forth after their kind. But no one has ever seen one kind produce something other than its kind.
The only thing that can be seen is bounded variation within kinds (which I do believe is a design feature). God said things will bring forth after their kind. But no one has ever seen one kind produce something other than its kind.
Well then, all the great apes which include humans, gorillas, chimpanzees, and orangutans, as well as the lesser apes (gibbons), and the common ancestor from which they all descended are all of the same 'kind.'
If mankind was capable of measuring up to God's perfect standard there would have been no need to impute the perfect righteousness of Jesus to those who receive Christ as Savior. In fact, there would have been no need for Jesus to go to the cross. God could have just said that those who do measure up to his perfect standards would be with him forever and those who don't can go to hell. Romans chapters 3-5 pretty well explains the issue of righteousness.
I'm failing to see how it can be considered good and loving of God to purposefully create a failed race. It's beneath His dignity, honor, and goodness. What kind of God creates something inherently flawed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Evolution has nothing to do with the problem of evil. Evil exists because of both angelic and human volition and the fact that God allows angelic and human volition to function. For angelic and human volition to exist God has to allow both sin and evil in the world.
It does though. If evolution is true, then suffering and death exist independent of and prior to man's volition.
Last edited by EscAlaMike; 01-21-2022 at 03:55 PM..
Well then, all the great apes which include humans, gorillas, chimpanzees, and orangutans, as well as the lesser apes (gibbons), and the common ancestor from which they all descended are all of the same 'kind.'
No, they aren't. Man is not the same kind as apes or other simians. No one has ever seen a human give birth to an ape or vice versa.
I'm failing to see how it can be considered good and loving of God to purposefully create a failed race. It's beneath His dignity, honor, and goodness. What kind of God creates something inherently flawed?
Take it up with God then because whether you like it or not, biological evolution is a reality and humans are the product of evolution.
Quote:
It does though. If evolution is true, then suffering exists independent of man's volition.
Evolution IS true and suffering does exist independent of man's volition as well as because of man's volition. What one person does can cause suffering to another person.
But suffering, death, disease all pre-existed mankind's existence. That's reality despite the religious views of those who reject evolution.
You can either deal with it as the reality which it is or you can deny it and cling to the Genesis creation story as being literal. . .which it isn't.
I suspect this will be futile and fall on deaf ears, but all this angst over why we are as we are and have such difficulty achieving what God wants from us is the result of our ignorant primitive ancestors' interpretations of our relationship with God and our purpose. The need for obedience to God is purely instructive, not to assuage or appease God to prevent punishment or receive rewards. It is to learn how to develop and mature our souls for eternal life, period. <<snipped for length>>
Thanks for taking the time to type out that in-depth response. I did read the whole thing. Like I've told you before, I believe your worldview to be remarkably deep and consistent especially within an evolutionary paradigm. I have to say, if I believed evolution were true I'd be very drawn to your way of seeing the universe.
No, they aren't. Man is not the same kind as apes or other simians. No one has ever seen a human give birth to an ape or vice versa.
Of course you deny it. That doesn't change reality. You are an ape. Go eat a banana.
I'm done with this thread. At least for now.
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