Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ? (Eden, believing, sin)
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This is why I asked, "When you read "No man can come to me what do the words mean?" Now I see "No man...no man in existence...can come to me." It's completely straightforward. I do not see, "No man who resists" or "It depends on whether no man can come to me or not". I see a clear unequivocal, "NO MAN can come to me." If you say to me, " Jesus said 'You must be born again' " am I going to argue "Well, that might mean born again, but it could also mean resisting the need to be born again" are you going to accept that as a legitimate interpretation of a clear unequivocal statement?
Yes Thrill, but you are saying that it is implying some or many will not be drawn, it does not say that. Jesus is basically saying everyone who comes to me the Father draws them, nothing more and nothing less, this is the way it happens. The reason I mentioned resistance to the Father drawing us to Jesus, was a response to your insinuation that the Father does not draw all to him, which is not there either, that is your opinion. What happened to you Thrill? last time I saw you posting on here, you did not appear an angry man to me.
Yes Thrill, but you are saying that it is implying some or many will not be drawn, it does not say that. Jesus is basically saying everyone who comes to me the Father draws them, nothing more and nothing less, this is the way it happens. The reason I mentioned resistance to the Father drawing us to Jesus, was a response to your insinuation that the Father does not draw all to him, which is not there either, that is your opinion. What happened to you Thrill? last time I saw you posting on here, you did not appear an angry man to me.
Yes, it does say that. No man can come to me unless the father draws him. Unless we want to throw away accepted Webster dictionary definitions. "No man" means "No man". It doesn't mean "some men" or "all men" it means "No man".
It is crystal clear: a man does not have the power to accept Jesus on his own. He absolutely needs the Father to quicken his spirit to want to accept Jesus. Contrary to what you and Michael Way say, a man is dead in his sins. He has no power to do anything spiritually. His spirit is dead just like a corpse. God breathes life into a man's dead spirit. God regenerates a man's spirit. He creates an irresistible desire within the man to want Jesus above anything else. Man is then capable of coming to Jesus per John 6:44. Without the Father making the first move, however man cannot make that choice. He's completely dead spiritually.
This is what the story of Lazarus teaches us. Lazarus couldn't hear Jesus' voice because he was dead. In the same way man cannot hear Jesus' voice today because he is dead. It took Jesus having to give life to Lazarus to enable him to hear Jesus' voice. Once Lazarus was alive he heard Jesus say "Come forth" and he got up and came out. Pure John 6:44
Yes, it does say that. No man can come to me unless the father draws him. Unless we want to throw away accepted Webster dictionary definitions. "No man" means "No man". It doesn't mean "some men" or "all men" it means "No man".
It is crystal clear: a man does not have the power to accept Jesus on his own. He absolutely needs the Father to quicken his spirit to want to accept Jesus. Contrary to what you and Michael Way say, a man is dead in his sins. He has no power to do anything spiritually. His spirit is dead just like a corpse. God breathes life into a man's dead spirit. God regenerates a man's spirit. He creates an irresistible desire within the man to want Jesus above anything else. Man is then capable of coming to Jesus per John 6:44. Without the Father making the first move, however man cannot make that choice. He's completely dead spiritually.
This is what the story of Lazarus teaches us. Lazarus couldn't hear Jesus' voice because he was dead. In the same way man cannot hear Jesus' voice today because he is dead. It took Jesus having to give life to Lazarus to enable him to hear Jesus' voice. Once Lazarus was alive he heard Jesus say "Come forth" and he got up and came out. Pure John 6:44
I think you are reading too much into this and getting the wrong end of the stick to what I am saying. I 100% believe no man comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but I do not believe that the verse of scripture is saying how you believe, that some come to Jesus and others do not because the Father did not draw them, there is absolutely no way that is what Jesus is saying or implying.
I think you are reading too much into this and getting the wrong end of the stick to what I am saying. I 100% believe no man comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but I do not believe that the verse of scripture is saying how you believe, that some come to Jesus and others do not because the Father did not draw them, there is absolutely no way that is what Jesus is saying or implying.
I'll leave you with these two points:
A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has first been regenerated
Faith did not cause the new birth, the new birth caused faith
Clearly all men are not born again. The only rational conclusion, if man needs God to regenerate him to come to Jesus, is that God does NOT regenerate all men. Therefore they are eternally lost in their sins. The verses cannot mean anything else.
I am not aware of a single verse in the Bible that says "man has free will to choose to accept or reject Jesus apart from God." But I AM aware of a verse that says he does not. And that verse is John 6:44
"No man can come to me UNLESS the Father draws him to me."
Then there is John 3:27:
"A man can receive only what is given him from heaven."
What comes from heaven? Jesus. Can a man receive Jesus? Only if it is given to him from heaven (the Father).
What have I been telling you over and over but that God makes the first move by means of the Gospel? So how you keep implying that I've said a person can accept Jesus apart from God? In common grace, when a person hears the gospel message the Holy Spirit makes the gospel understandable to him and as per John 16:8-11 convicts concerning the sin of unbelief, concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment.
Anyone who hears the gospel message can either accept it and be eternally saved, or reject it and remain under condemnation. This isn't a difficult thing to understand.
Quote:
Revelation 22:17 does indeed say Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. How do we reconcile these two contradictory verses? By harmonizing them to acknowledge that men can indeed drink from the water of life but only if those men have come to Jesus through the Father having called them to Jesus. No other means of coming to Jesus exists. The Father MUST draw that man to Jesus. It is the only way a man is capable of receiving Jesus--if the Father first draws him to Jesus.
There is no contradiction here. Despite having been told over and over that God draws by means of the gospel (and the Holy Spirit's ministry at gospel hearing) you continue to demonstrate an inability to understand it and keep insisting that God must draw a person to Jesus despite having been told how God does draw a person.
A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has first been regenerated
Faith did not cause the new birth, the new birth caused faith
Clearly all men are not born again. The only rational conclusion, if man needs God to regenerate him to come to Jesus, is that God does NOT regenerate all men. Therefore they are eternally lost in their sins. The verses cannot mean anything else.
Faith in the manifested love of God(not the scriptures), Jesus Christ being the love of God made manifest, brings about a work in the heart, and that love becomes us, which is the regenerating work of God. You can keep your religious rhetoric as far as I am concerned. Arguing that you are believing the right thing is proof that you are not, and proof you have definitely not understood the good news. If your experience does not back up what you are believing, then to me you are just a clanging cymbal.
Tell me how can anyone be lost in all eternity when God inhabits all eternity?
I think you are reading too much into this and getting the wrong end of the stick to what I am saying. I 100% believe no man comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but I do not believe that the verse of scripture is saying how you believe, that some come to Jesus and others do not because the Father did not draw them, there is absolutely no way that is what Jesus is saying or implying.
The koine helkō = draw/ drag off in power/ impel all unto Him.
This is why I mentioned resistance to Thrill. God is drawing all men but there is resistance because mankind is attached to the world that Jesus calls us to forsake. Along with that, the Jesus that is so often presented to the world, hating sinners, choosing some while damning others and casting you into hellfire for not believing he loves you, who can blame the resistance towards that Jesus. The Father needs first to tear down that concept to impel them to come.
This is why I mentioned resistance to Thrill. God is drawing all men but there is resistance because mankind is attached to the world that Jesus calls us to forsake. Along with that, the Jesus that is so often presented to the world, hating sinners, choosing some while damning others and casting you into hellfire for not believing he loves you, who can blame the resistance towards that Jesus. The Father needs first to tear down that concept to impel them to come.
My brother Pcamps: In the end of Abba's work within His universe, absolutely all (the radical pas) bows in unrestrained worship to Him from whom and to whom all ends!
You were given grace before the world was created. -2 Tim. 1:9
You were chosen before the world was created. -Eph. 1:4
You were loved by God with a love that is inseparable. -Rom. 8:38,39
You were forgiven for all your sins. `-Eph. 1:7
You were justified before God & the righteousness of God is imputed to you. -2 Cor. 5:4
You have become a new creation. -2 Cor. 5:17
"In/en the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow & tonque confess, You are Lord to the glory of God the Father. -Phil. 2:10
In = en
How deep is the confession?
The heavens.
The earth.
The underworld
Not perfunctory genuflections ! !
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