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I know that Peter and Paul (and Mary too, maybe) say that God desires all men to be saved. But in fact all men are not saved. Does Isaiah 46:10 not state:
“My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I desire.”
So God does desire that all men get saved, yet clearly all men are not saved.
"And these will go into eternal damnation." Matthew 25:46
So if God desires that all men are saved and yet all men are not saved but in fact some go into eternal fire "Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire" then does God get all that he desires?
why do you think if God desires all humanity to be saved that some wont be saved?
And they do not go into eternal damnation they go into an age of correction.
A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has first been regenerated
Faith did not cause the new birth, the new birth caused faith
Clearly all men are not born again. The only rational conclusion, if man needs God to regenerate him to come to Jesus, is that God does NOT regenerate all men. Therefore they are eternally lost in their sins. The verses cannot mean anything else.
I agree with the regeneration having to come first thrill, but what you do not seem to grasp is the Father will DRAW all unto himself everyone in their own order.
All the first born sons are appointed for wrath, that is all flesh, Cain, Ishmael, Esau, Israel, these were all appointed for wrath and both Romans and Galatians explain how you are of the seed of Ishmael and Isaac, that your life in this flesh is Esau pertaining to the law and condemned by the law, but that you are also of Isaac where there is another law.
Romans explains how Egypt was appointed for wrath and then he uses the same comparison to show how the northern kingdom was also appointed for wrath.
Always showing flesh and spirit using the genealogies to symbolise flesh and spirit.
Cain and Abel
Ishmael and Isaac
Esau and Jacob
Israel and Jydah
amen hanni, this is something so many can't seem to see, out of the SAME lump a vessel for wrath and a vessel for mercy.
No it isn't that cut and dry. the bolded above is what you typed in.Text says no such thing. It is temporal, not eternal. We all experience Gods wrath at some point, some more than others
Yes, I am familiar with the "aionion" temporary or permanent debate. It's meaning is controversial. I used to go with the temporary. I now go with the eternal.
Yes, I am familiar with the "aionion" temporary or permanent debate. It's meaning is controversial. I used to go with the temporary. I now go with the eternal.
yet the scriptures actually tell us that they have an end, but like many they refuse to believe the scriptures and hold to a doctrine that Paul says is of devils.
there is nothing in scripture that say anything about people being predestined to an eternal hell. The only way people come to that conclusion is by adding to what the scriptures actually say, just as you did here.
You quote the scripture "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them" and then conclude some or many the Father simply will not draw to Christ.
Yet the scriptures clearly say if I be lifted up (and he was) I will draw all men unto me.
Thus according to the scriptures the Father will draw ALL unto Himself.
And if you look at all the scriptures that actually reference predestination they are all in reference to life in Christ.
There is only one predestination spoken of in scripture and it is all in reference to being in Christ, every man in their own order.
Yes, it has been awhile. Pneuma, in order to harmonize the two conflicting points of view we have to make one fit with the other. So in the case of "I will draw all men..." we have to interpret the "all men" to mean all men who the Lord has predestined as vessels for glory and exclude all men who have prepared as vessels for wrath/destruction. Paul makes it very clear that there are two groups God has chosen for wrath and for salvation as brightfame pointed out in #75.
Yes, it has been awhile. Pneuma, in order to harmonize the two conflicting points of view we have to make one fit with the other. So in the case of "I will draw all men..." we have to interpret the "all men" to mean all men who the Lord has predestined as vessels for glory and exclude all men who have prepared as vessels for wrath/destruction. Paul makes it very clear that there are two groups God has chosen for wrath and for salvation as brightfame pointed out in #75.
No thrill Paul makes it clear that out of the SAME LUMP there is a vessel fitted for destruction and a vessel of mercy. that which is of the earth earthy is that which is fitted for destruction and that which is inward or spiritual is the which obtains mercy.
thrill all that the Father gave him is all of humanity and He will not lose a single one.
But then why doesn't Jesus say, "all humanity will come to me" and "I will lift all humanity?" Why say "all that the father has given me?" Such a phrase implies all those special people that my father has given to me. The Greek should be unambiguous--"My father has given me all who have ever been born." Not "Of those he has given me I should lose none." Study "of those" very carefully. eg. "Of those [gifts] my father have bought for me" implies "there were many other gifts my father could have bought for me but he chose the [particular] ones he bought for me."
But then why doesn't Jesus say, "all humanity will come to me" and "I will lift all humanity?" Why say "all that the father has given me?" Such a phrase implies all those special people that my father has given to me. The Greek should be unambiguous--"My father has given me all who have ever been born." Not "Of those he has given me I should lose none." Study "of those" very carefully. eg. "Of those [gifts] my father have bought for me" implies "there were many other gifts my father could have bought for me but he chose the [particular] ones he bought for me."
because brother we today speak differently then those who lived 2000 years ago. However the scriptures are very clear that the aions come to an end, thus cannot be endless, that Jesus came to save the world, that his atonement was for the world, that all men will be saved, etc.
So why would the Father send Jesus to save the world if the Father was not going to save the world?
either you are saying Jesus failed in what he was sent to do or you are saying God never intended for Jesus to save the world.
Sure He did, read the OP. Some He didn't appoint destine to wrath presupposes that there are some He did.
That word appoint in 1 Thess 5:9 means: to decree one to be subject to wrath
Then we have Paul writing that some God made as vessels of wrath which are fitted for destruction Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
No, he did not, and to hell with the OP. The only people ''fitted to destruction'' are those who God in his omniscience knew would reject his plan of salvation. God does not prevent anyone from responding to the gospel and thereby being saved or regenerated.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-27-2022 at 09:04 AM..
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