Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ? (Jesus, Israel, Isaac)
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The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath[as others], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,
All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
All the first born sons are appointed for wrath, that is all flesh, Cain, Ishmael, Esau, Israel, these were all appointed for wrath and both Romans and Galatians explain how you are of the seed of Ishmael and Isaac, that your life in this flesh is Esau pertaining to the law and condemned by the law, but that you are also of Isaac where there is another law.
Romans explains how Egypt was appointed for wrath and then he uses the same comparison to show how the northern kingdom was also appointed for wrath.
Always showing flesh and spirit using the genealogies to symbolise flesh and spirit.
Cain and Abel
Ishmael and Isaac
Esau and Jacob
Israel and Jydah
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory?
Right away we see TWO distinct groups of people:
1. vessels of wrath
2. vessels of mercy
Vessels of wrath clearly are those people who are predestined to experience God's wrath (eternal condemnation in hell) and vessels of mercy are those people who are predestined to experience God's mercy of salvation (eternal happiness in heaven).
God desires to demonstrate his power and wrath by patiently enduring those vessels who have been prepared for destruction in hell. He patiently endures them so that he can demonstrate to those he has elected to save--the vessels of mercy--the riches of his glory.
So I'm not insisting anything. It is Paul who is insisting that God saves some (vessels of mercy) and withholds mercy from others in order to demonstrate the richness of his mercy toward his elect.
Says so. Right there in black and white.
No it isn't that cut and dry. the bolded above is what you typed in.Text says no such thing. It is temporal, not eternal. We all experience Gods wrath at some point, some more than others
Predestination is biblical but it does not imply double predestination - the concept that God predestined some to be saved and others to be damned to hell.
Thats exactly what it implies. Mans destiny one way or the other has been determined by God before the world began. God either created a person for hell and destruction in honor of His Justice, or for Eternal Glory and Salvation in honor of His Grace and Mercy. He created us either a vessel of wrath or a vessel of mercy.
Jesus states clearly and unequivocally in John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them..."
There's no question--if a man doesn't come to Jesus it is because he wasn't drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit. The fault lies with God, not man because man, as Jesus clearly says, didn't have the power to choose Jesus by himself.
I'm afraid double predestination is the correct reality. God chose the few to salvation--in line with the narrow gate parable--and predestined the vast majority to eternal damnation, "wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many are they who go through it." Matthew 7:14.
Morning thrill, it has been awhile.
there is nothing in scripture that say anything about people being predestined to an eternal hell. The only way people come to that conclusion is by adding to what the scriptures actually say, just as you did here.
You quote the scripture "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them" and then conclude some or many the Father simply will not draw to Christ.
Yet the scriptures clearly say if I be lifted up (and he was) I will draw all men unto me.
Thus according to the scriptures the Father will draw ALL unto Himself.
And if you look at all the scriptures that actually reference predestination they are all in reference to life in Christ.
There is only one predestination spoken of in scripture and it is all in reference to being in Christ, every man in their own order.
Anyone who reads the entire passage from verse 35 to 59 can see that the entire context is about eternal life [salvation] For example:
7 "All those the Father gives me will come to me".
"All those" clearly refers to a selection of certain men and women from the whole and not the whole.
39 "I shall lose none of all those he has given me."
Of those he has given me selected from all men I shall lose none of them.
40 "...everyone who believes in [me] shall have eternal life
Whoever believes in me shall have eternal life.
44 “[However] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.
It is is undeniable what Jesus is saying: the father has given some men to me and those who he has given me I will save. Well, what happens to the rest? There is only one fate for them: eternal hell. Because they didn't choose Jesus through no fault of their own, but because God didn't call them to accept Jesus. Man cannot know the will of God or his plan for why he chooses some and not other. It is all part of a divine mystery of God Paul talks about throughout his epistles.
“Some men are predestined to everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.” 1 [It is] God’s choice to save certain sinners by grace and his choice to leave certain sinners to the damnation they deserve. Predestination is part of God’s decree, his eternal purpose in which he has decided all that will take place, ordaining everything for the manifestation of his glory.
God does not prevent anything. He simply does not call certain people to believe in Jesus as the verse clearly states, "NO ONE can come to me.......UNLESS....the Father draws him to me." God calls some and not others according to his will and according to his good pleasure.
“For he says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Romans 9:15
Translated: "I will save who I choose to save."
So I have nothing to do with it. It doesn't depend on my will or exertion to make a choice to accept Jesus. Says so right there. My choice to accept or reject Jesus is not dependent on MY will or exertion, it is wholly dependent on God's mercy shown to me as one of the fortunate few elected to salvation.
thrill Roman 9:15 has nothing to do with sending people to hell for all eternity, it is speaking of the outer man and the inner man for it is out of the SAME LUMP of clay that the potter uses.
The outer man or earth earthy man will be destroyed but that destruction comes via apoleia,( which is rooted in apollumi. Apollumi is a corrective word or a word of correction. When God Apollumi’s someone God is correcting that person.) and katartizo (which means to make one as he ought to be made.)
Thus when the earth earthy man goes through the gate of destruction it is so that he can be corrected and made how he ought to be made, which is after the image and likeness of God.
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory?
Right away we see TWO distinct groups of people:
1. vessels of wrath
2. vessels of mercy
Vessels of wrath clearly are those people who are predestined to experience God's wrath (eternal condemnation in hell) and vessels of mercy are those people who are predestined to experience God's mercy of salvation (eternal happiness in heaven).
God desires to demonstrate his power and wrath by patiently enduring those vessels who have been prepared for destruction in hell. He patiently endures them so that he can demonstrate to those he has elected to save--the vessels of mercy--the riches of his glory.
So I'm not insisting anything. It is Paul who is insisting that God saves some (vessels of mercy) and withholds mercy from others in order to demonstrate the richness of his mercy toward his elect.
Says so. Right there in black and white.
No thrill we see ONE lump and out of the ONE lump we see wrath being pored out on the earth earthy man in order to correct him so he can be made as he ought to be made, which as I said is in the image and likeness of God.
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