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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I'm not even going to get into the accusations being tossed around, but I will simply ask: Do you believe Isaiah 53 points to Jesus? If not, why not?
Quote:
Mightyqueen said: What the hell? What Jewish person would believe that? If someone believes Isaiah 53 points to Jesus...they are Christian, not Jewish.
As per Post 63, let's get back to topic; i.e., why do you/do you pray to Jesus/God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
What the hell? What Jewish person would believe that? If someone believes Isaiah 53 points to Jesus...they are Christian, not Jewish.
As per Post 63, let's get back to topic; i.e., why do you/do you pray to Jesus/God.
Messianic Jews are both Christian and Jewish.
And it is an honest question to ask any Jew, to ask them to examine the scripture in question and determine whether they think, upon examination, that it might indeed refer to Jesus Christ as Messiah.
As he asked the question, If not, why not?
I for one am interested in the answer to that question; even if we have to start another thread (this one) to get to the bottom of it.
And it is an honest question to ask any Jew, to ask them to examine the scripture in question and determine whether they think, upon examination, that it might indeed refer to Jesus Christ as Messiah.
As he asked the question, If not, why not?
I for one am interested in the answer to that question; even if we have to start another thread (this one) to get to the bottom of it.
Ok, I am not Jewish, but I know enough Jews and have had conversations on the topic of Christian interpretation of Jewish scripture on CD and real life. Again, I'd like to get rosends' more knowledgeable input, but it is a holiday.
First of all, I am not sure you could find an observant Jew who has never studied that passage and who doesn't already know your argument. You saw that in Rachel's response. Most observant Jews are not exactly naive about the Christian interpretations of their sacred writings and have been proselytized to with the same arguments.
Secondly, even if they did buy into your argument that the passage refers to a Messiah, they still maintain that Jesus of Nazareth did not fit the requirements as they know them.
Messianic Jews are Christians. They might be Jewish by birth, and they might retain Jewish customs, but they have accepted Christianity and with it, the Christian reinterpretation of the Jewish Bible.
Ok, I am not Jewish, but I know enough Jews and have had conversations on the topic of Christian interpretation of Jewish scripture on CD and real life. Again, I'd like to get rosends' more knowledgeable input, but it is a holiday.
First of all, I am not sure you could find an observant Jew who has never studied that passage and who doesn't already know your argument. You saw that in Rachel's response. Most observant Jews are not exactly naive about the Christian interpretations of their sacred writings and have been proselytized to with the same arguments.
Secondly, even if they did buy into your argument that the passage refers to a Messiah, they still maintain that Jesus of Nazareth did not fit the requirements as they know them.
Messianic Jews are Christians. They might be Jewish by birth, and they might retain Jewish customs, but they have accepted Christianity and with it, the Christian reinterpretation of the Jewish Bible.
Messianic "Jews" are Christians and "Jews" by definition.
If someone who is Jewish becomes a Christian, it does not preclude that they are no longer Jewish. They are still a descendant of Jacob. And I believe that many Messianic Jews count their Christianity as a sect of Judaism as it was in the days of the early church.
I am certain that many Jews have studied the argument and have rejected it; however, Jesus' claim to be the Messiah is there for them as God says, "My hands are stretched out still" in wanting to extend mercy to the Jewish heart through the forgiveness that is provided for in the Cross; which is pointed forward to by the animal sacrifices in Judaism.
I believe that the scripture declares that in the last days, all of Israel shall be saved (Romans 11:26); not through any other means than the sacrifice of their own Messiah on the Cross which is extended to all men as the only way to salvation.
When Jesus returns from heaven (see Acts 1:11), it is at that point that every Jewish person will "look on Me whom they have pierced" and will "mourn for Him as for an only son" (Zechariah 12:10).
They will ask Him where He got His wounds and He will say that He got them in the house of His friends.
Messianic "Jews" are Christians and "Jews" by definition.
Jews who have voluntarily converted to Christianity may be observant Christians, but they are no longer observant Jews. Jews who either worship Jesus or consider him to be the son of G-d are considered to be apostate.
Jews do not view G-d as being a corporeal being, as Christians view Jesus to be, and as Christians even depict G-d in their art (see Michelangelo's depiction of G-d on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel). The incorporeal nature of G-d is a very basic tenet of Judaism, with Maimonides (a 12th century rabbi) having stated that "whoever conceives of G-d as a corporeal being is an apostate." This is why observant Jews do not anthropomorphize G-d in paintings or sculpture, nor worship any other graven images.
While the apostate Jew does not lose his birth status as a Jew, he does lose his credibility within the Jewish community.
Jews who have voluntarily converted to Christianity may be observant Christians, but they are no longer observant Jews. Jews who either worship Jesus or consider him to be the son of G-d are considered to be apostate.
Jews do not view G-d as being a corporeal being, as Christians view Jesus to be, and as Christians even depict G-d in their art (see Michelangelo's depiction of G-d on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel). The incorporeal nature of G-d is a very basic tenet of Judaism, with Maimonides (a 12th century rabbi) having stated that "whoever conceives of G-d as a corporeal being is an apostate." This is why observant Jews do not anthropomorphize G-d in paintings or sculpture, nor worship any other graven images.
While the apostate Jew does not lose his birth status as a Jew, he does lose his credibility within the Jewish community.
I believe that the apostle John returned the favour in 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7, by saying that those who do not believe that Jesus Christ (God) is come in the flesh have the spirit of antichrist and are therefore apostate according to the Christian faith.
I had always considered a Jew to be a descendant of Jacob. Are you suggesting that if a Jew becomes a Christian, he no longer has Jewish DNA?
(okay, I saw what you wrote on that; at least you are not saying that if a Jew becomes a Christian he is no longer Jewish (in his DNA, at least)).
In the days of the New Testament, Christianity was considered to be a Jewish sect, called "the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5).
It is only because Christianity is inclusive of Gentiles that it is considered by Judaism to be a completely different religion than Judaism, today.
However, Jesus was in fact Jewish and He is the Messiah that was prophesied in the Jewish scriptures.
Consider that Romans 15:9-12 contains scriptures that are all quoted from the Old Testament (sorry, "the Jewish copies of the holy scriptures").
Rom 15:9, And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Rom 15:10, And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
Rom 15:11, And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
Rom 15:12, And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Last edited by justbyfaith; 04-16-2022 at 10:26 PM..
While the apostate Jew does not lose his birth status as a Jew, he does lose his credibility within the Jewish community.
That is one way that Jews are persecuted for becoming Christians.
Jesus said,
Mat 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11, Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12, Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Luk 6:22, Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23, Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
And Paul wrote,
2Ti 3:10, But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11,Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12, Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13, But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
According to Christian doctrine, a man is not justified (declared righteous) through law-keeping but through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 4:1-8, Galatians 2:16, Philippians 3:9).
So, to be persecuted for righteousness' sake would be to be persecuted for one's faith in Jesus as Messiah.
According to Christian doctrine, a man is not justified (declared righteous) through law-keeping but through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 4:1-8, Galatians 2:16, Philippians 3:9).
So, to be persecuted for righteousness' sake would be to be persecuted for one's faith in Jesus as Messiah.
Trying to find out jusr what your agenda actually is. Not sure its the least bit innocent
Trying to find out jusr what your agenda actually is. Not sure its the least bit innocent
Jesus said,
Mat 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11, Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12, Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
And,
Mat 10:24, The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Mat 10:25, It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
Mat 10:26, Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Trying to find out jusr what your agenda actually is. Not sure its the least bit innocent
My agenda is to see souls saved for Jesus Christ.
My desire is that the people that I minister to may be saved and edified in order that they might have an abundant entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11, For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
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What Jewish person would believe that? If someone believes Isaiah 53 points to Jesus...they are Christian, not Jewish.
