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I see reincarnation as part of a larger process of how things are cycled and recycled through the earth it is not just about judgement and payback as such it is about the process of spiritual growth through the medium of the human body and is where soul comes in - it is the connection between the spiritual and carnal
We won’t learn anything by being exposed to a brilliant flame or fire as we are like a candle in comparison and would just be snuffed out
We humans are composite and what is from above, the spiritual, inhabits and incarnates what is below for the greater good
God created the heaven and earth and created man to have dominion over the earth and to be overseers
I just don’t see that the Scriptures are about or can be about disembodied spirits with no connection to the earth as from the beginning to end of the Scriptures the purpose seems to be about family relationships under God and there is connection and co-ordination being prophecied through the Scriptures about the looking forward to the peaceful arrangement with each part in balance, just like the human body itself is one but has many different parts/members
Mat 6:9**After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10**Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11**Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12**And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13**And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14**For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15**But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Your candle reference.. just wondering, why do you think we wouldn't be able to learn anything and we would be snuffed out? You don't think that God would design our spirits to be able to withstand His spirit without being snuffed out?
We need to prove nothing to God, we are perfect in His site. It is we ourselves who judge us. That is why some come back. Another reason is to build up treasure in heaven. I would dread if reincarnation was our fate but it isn't and our home is in heaven. None talk about ever coming back to Earth and it is strictly voluntary, and some do to act as a type of guardian angel to another person, it is all planned.
Your candle reference.. just wondering, why do you think we wouldn't be able to learn anything and we would be snuffed out? You don't think that God would design our spirits to be able to withstand His spirit without being snuffed out?
It is more about understanding how the Holy Scriptures themselves use allegory and metaphors and what their purpose is
Eternal torment is a misunderstanding or misapplication of the fire references and not taking into account the dimensional difference between the creator and the created
And I believe the same type of thing is being done with thinking that we are like embryonic spirits that become disembodied spirits
Where is the connection to the earth that is spoken of in Genesis? How humanity/man/Adam is given dominion over the earth
Gen 1:26**And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27**So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28**And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
I’ll try to explain what my point is in reference to the candle, it’s an analogy, a metaphor - its about what fire physically is and what it produces (heat and light) and also how the Holy Scriptures themselves use the physical and natural things in symbolic ways
Joh 3:12**If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13**And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14**And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15**That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Humans existence is as mortals, we certainly do have intellectual/emotional capacity above other creatures, but we are still creatures
That probably doesn’t answer your question (sorry), but what I do find it is hard to into words ideas that I have formed by the reading I have done…..
It is more about understanding how the Holy Scriptures themselves use allegory and metaphors and what their purpose is
Eternal torment is a misunderstanding or misapplication of the fire references and not taking into account the dimensional difference between the creator and the created
And I believe the same type of thing is being done with thinking that we are like embryonic spirits that become disembodied spirits
Where is the connection to the earth that is spoken of in Genesis? How humanity/man/Adam is given dominion over the earth
Gen 1:26**And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27**So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28**And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
I’ll try to explain what my point is in reference to the candle, it’s an analogy, a metaphor - its about what fire physically is and what it produces (heat and light) and also how the Holy Scriptures themselves use the physical and natural things in symbolic ways
Joh 3:12**If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13**And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14**And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15**That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Humans existence is as mortals, we certainly do have intellectual/emotional capacity above other creatures, but we are still creatures
That probably doesn’t answer your question (sorry), but what I do find it is hard to into words ideas that I have formed by the reading I have done…..
Thanks for the response.
Sorry but I have to get really back to the basics as a starting point for me to get what you're saying...
So, do you believe that we are never to be in spirit form, even after death (or beyond death, or when you're raised up from the grave, whatever belief you hold about life after physical death.)
I'm just wondering about your interpretation of "disembodied spirits" as it relates to Mystic's views.
Just curious, just trying to understand.
Thanks for the response.
Sorry but I have to get really back to the basics as a starting point for me to get what you're saying...
So, do you believe that we are never to be in spirit form, even after death (or beyond death, or when you're raised up from the grave, whatever belief you hold about life after physical death.)
I'm just wondering about your interpretation of "disembodied spirits" as it relates to Mystic's views.
Just curious, just trying to understand.
ok just dumping thoughts here
I can’t really give a simple answer (sorry)
I think this relates to mystic and me having had a totally different religious and philosophical upbringing and then appreciation of what Christianity is
The ‘design’ seems to be split in 3 with one at top and 2 below - Jew/gentile and neither if/when they are balanced out, bonded/free and neither if/when they are balanced out, male/female and neither when they are balance out
I have no hard and fast religious conclusions of my own, how I have always processed information seems to be intuitive first then I read to test the information and try to understand what I read, a lot just didn’t make sense when I was 15 about the context and relationship so I left organised religion but retained a belief in God/higher power as that felt right, I ‘knew’ and ‘felt’ like an individual human being, a person who had been brought up as a Christian and it is within that context that I have to process religious and spiritual things
When I heard about the concept of reincarnation probably when I was about 16-17, (I’m now in my 60’s) it ‘felt’ right as it made sense with this scriptural verse that had also felt right to me when I was being brought up and educated in the religious environment
Gal 6:7**Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
That is the karma concept in Buddhism- and is eastern
I have never thought that I was an embryonic spirit that will be somehow be refined in some way after death which is what mystic believes, for me it just does not make sense
I was brought up in first Presbyterian then Pentecostal church and what I had was a dissonance between what I felt about what I read in the Scriptures which made sense, Love God and neighbour as self, be Holy as your Father in heaven is Holy, what you sow you will reap, do unto others as you would have them do to you… and that clashed at a very deep internal level with the concept that I was being taught that God was going to burn non-Christians in fire for eternity because they were non-Christians.
As I have always felt a type of connection or awareness to ‘spirit’ I don’t believe it is after death that I will then be or be born into spirit form - for me I have a dim awareness of spirit that but the physical is definitely predominant and a lot of the time can be wearying and tiresome
It is more about understanding how the Holy Scriptures themselves use allegory and metaphors and what their purpose is
Eternal torment is a misunderstanding or misapplication of the firereferences and not taking into account the dimensional difference between the creator and the created
And I believe the same type of thing is being done with thinking that we are like embryonic spirits that become disembodied spirits
Where is the connection to the earth that is spoken of in Genesis? How humanity/man/Adam is given dominion over the earth
Gen 1:26**And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27**So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28**And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
I’ll try to explain what my point is in reference to the candle, it’s an analogy, a metaphor - its about what fire physically is and what it produces (heat and light) and also how the Holy Scriptures themselves use the physical and natural things in symbolic ways
Joh 3:12**If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13**And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14**And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15**That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Humans existence is as mortals, we certainly do have intellectual/emotional capacity above other creatures, but we are still creatures
That probably doesn’t answer your question (sorry), but what I do find it is hard to into words ideas that I have formed by the reading I have done…..
I understand that you do not grasp the essence of my views because they require a very different comprehension of our Reality which is not generally accessible to the general masses. The "dimensional" difference you mention in the bold is not dimensional. It is different energy levels. Reality is stratified by energy level with the macro or physical levels being at extremely low levels of energy aggregated into what we perceive as material objects, people, animals, and whatnot.
These aggregated levels comprise less than 5% of our observable Reality. Existing at such low levels of energy, we cannot perceive anything that exists at the higher levels of energy we call the quantum level. It is like trying to perceive the outside and inside of a light-speed spaceship as it passes us standing on the ground. It is the energy level at which Spirits exist that makes them inaccessible to us.
God is Spirit and the Hebrew words translated as image and likeness are misleading. The root word for the word translated as image actually means phantom or shade (what we would think of as a Spirit) and the word translated as likeness refers to our having the same attributes as God. Since God is consciousness in my view, that encompasses both words.
The conditioning of our physical existence and body is strong and hampers any comprehension of what we actually are, IMO. It is not as limiting as our ancestors' terror of Spirits but it is off-putting to our physical sensibilities. It is also impossible to imagine what life outside a physical body would even be like. Personally, I am looking forward to it.
I understand that you do not grasp the essence of my views because they require a very different comprehension of our Reality which is not generally accessible to the general masses. The "dimensional" difference you mention in the bold is not dimensional. It is different energy levels. Reality is stratified by energy level with the macro or physical levels being at extremely low levels of energy aggregated into what we perceive as material objects, people, animals, and whatnot.
These aggregated levels comprise less than 5% of our observable Reality. Existing at such low levels of energy, we cannot perceive anything that exists at the higher levels of energy we call the quantum level. It is like trying to perceive the outside and inside of a light-speed spaceship as it passes us standing on the ground. It is the energy level at which Spirits exist that makes them inaccessible to us.
God is Spirit and the Hebrew words translated as image and likeness are misleading. The root word for the word translated as image actually means phantom or shade (what we would think of as a Spirit) and the word translated as likeness refers to our having the same attributes as God. Since God is consciousness in my view, that encompasses both words.
The conditioning of our physical existence and body is strong and hampers any comprehension of what we actually are, IMO. It is not as limiting as our ancestors' terror of Spirits but it is off-putting to our physical sensibilities. It is also impossible to imagine what life outside a physical body would even be like. Personally, I am looking forward to it.
I do understand somewhat what you are meaning about energy in principle though and where your views come from, because that is where my intuition is able to imagine and process ideas, it’s more about that I also see the other side, or another societal level that has do with the very real principalities, powers, rulers in high places which were prophecied to become reality at ‘the’ appointed time - the first century, and those that have risen in their own orders have had their own duties and responsibilities to do and they need to account for their oversight of the past 2000 years and their interactions with each other which have affected societal relationships
On this forum I see both your and others points of view and I observe your and their disagreements and arguments and justifications
In my opinion Your Buddhist or eastern type of heritage which you sought has its own responsibilities attached to it as well
Where I believe you and BF continue to clash is at the eastern vs Western, which is like the left and right hands … how I think about it is you are each doing what your heritage dictates
Just like Christianity itself needs to account for their own shepherding and other duties, so do the other types as well
Just my opinion and observation when I impartially try to understand Holy Scripture with other scriptures, no judgement meant to or about anyone
Also I apologise if it’s taking your thread off the topic you wanted to discuss
I'm still not understanding why you think people would come back (this is basically reincarnation, no?).
And how on earth would someone come back to act as a guardian angel to another person? That doesn't make sense, either. If you do that, how do you know who is this person you are to act as a guardian angel to? Your view seems to not answer questions, but to just create new ones that can't really be answered. (So far, in my opinion.)
What do you view as "treasure"?
Sorry, not trying to pick apart your views, but I find them slightly confusing.
I believe we are living in the matrix here on Earth. Our real home is in heaven with God. From what I have read on NDE forums, we choose our life down here on Earth for the sole purpose of advancing spiritually. Some choose to come multiple times so yes, reincarnation . God has given us free will, we choose. When people do die, they all say the same thing...and say it over and over.....it was like returning home or I knew I was finally home. Our goal is to become perfect like our heavenly father in heaven.
In regard to what is treasure, God does the saving but what about our reward? Some will stand before Him with almost nothing to show while others lived a life a service. Who will be the greater in the Kingdom? The guy who sat on the couch and watched TV all day or the person who helped in the soup kitchen because he/she had a burden for the poor? Both saved but one will have a greater treasure or reward than the other.
I had a dog Leon. He was perfect. Sure, he rolled in stuff and sometimes grabbled things off of the kitchen table but in my mind, I wouldn't want him any other way. I don't mean technically perfect, I mean God made us right? God does not make junk.
There is nothing magical or supernatural about the Holy Spirit. We are capable of evoking Him and receiving His guidance through our state of mind. We simply need to be in one or more of the states of mind associated with God's Holy Spirit of agape love as revealed and demonstrated by Jesus. We avoid "sin" by being in those states of mind because we cannot sin in them. We can only sin when we are in other (especially opposite) states of mind. It is not rocket science or supernatural!
Philippians 2:5-30 King James Version
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
The Holy Spirit IS the True Nature of God revealed, described, and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. He IS agape love, kindness, mercy, compassion, gentleness, unconditional acceptance, empathy, sympathy, tolerance, long-suffering, decency, friendliness, peacefulness, joyfulness, understanding, care, concern, solicitude, solicitousness, sensitivity, tender-heartedness, soft-heartedness, warm-heartedness, warmth, love, brotherly love, tenderness, gentleness, mercifulness, leniency, lenience, consideration, kindness, humanity, humaneness, kind-heartedness, charity, benevolence, and He is non-judgmental.
How can the Holy Spirit not be supernatural?
How can the Holy Spirit not be Holy?
Your theology is your own, your version belongs to you.
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