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This is the core of the gospel. Do we believe that Jesus actually died, was buried, and raised to life by the Father? The gospel message centers around, is founded upon these events.
1 Corinthians 15
15 Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, 2 by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
[i]12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith also is in vain. 15 Moreover, we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised [h]Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Jesus, the person, died. It was not just His body that died. Jesus died. If we believe that He did not actually die, that He went straight to heaven to be with the Father, this is a contradiction to the foundation of the gospel. But Jesus did die and He was raised to life never to die again. He showed Himself to many who were witnesses. He was no longer dead and He ascended into heaven, after His resurrection. In the same way that Jesus died and was raised to life, the same thing will be true of us. We will die and we will be raised up out of death.
Satan is the father of lies and told Eve, that she would not die if she ate of the forbidden fruit. Eve chose to believe Satan over God who told her that if she ate of the fruit, she would die. Death was the penalty for eating the fruit. God did not say that if you eat of the fruit, only your body will die, and you will continue to live in heaven as a spirit. The truth is that she would die, return to the soil, with the breath of life removed from her, returning to the Father.
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
God was not just speaking to Adam's body when He spoke these words. He spoke to the man, Adam.
In 1 Cor. 15, we see that there were believers saying that there is no resurrection of the dead. And the apostle Paul says that if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Jesus has not been raised and that their faith is in vain. If Jesus was not raised from the dead, this means that those who are asleep (dead) in Christ, have perished. This tells us that when Jesus died, He was not alive until the Father raised Him from the dead. His spirit (breath of life, life force) did not die and returned to the Father. But Jesus, the person, died and was in that state until the Father raised Him to life, never to die again. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead. We must be raised out of death by the Lord in order to live again. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 03-29-2024 at 04:18 PM..
Hi Kate. Do you know what a strawman argument is? Well, a straw man argument is the logical fallacy of distorting an opposing position into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version. This is the very thing that you began when you entitled your thread "Did Jesus' spirit die on the cross?" The 'spirit' referred to in the thread title is 'the breath'. It cannot live and it cannot die because it's an 'element' that, when applied to a human shell creates 'a living soul'. When removed the 'living soul' returns to an empty shell.
Moreover, despite all of the posts that have attempted to make this clear to you, you have perpetuated the straw man argument. This doesn't make you a bad person, of course, but you do appear to be unwilling to listen and to, perhaps, learn. I was as 'green' as can be when I first ventured into Bible study some 35-years ago. But I would question everything until the answers to questions were eventually revealed. I'm still learning, and you might have some scriptural knowledge up your sleeve that will benefit me. So, none of these posts are intended to make you or anyone else lose heart. Just know that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
Hey Rom. I told you the other day that we would have to agree to disagree on this topic. I’m done with it where you and Shana are concerned. I believe we’ve all said everything that could be said. Nothing I can say will ever change your thinking, and you won’t change mine either. As always, I wish you well. Have a blessed day.
Kate
Kate, you are still obstinately digging in your heels on this topic by your reluctance to listen to what the Bible has to say on this topic of yours. This is not a case of our personally agreeing to disagree. We’re not talking about which sports team/singer/actor/song/movie/politician, etc. is better in our opinion than another. We are talking about what THE BIBLE has to say about the question that you asked in your original post. You have been supplied the biblical response to what is a strawman question anyway, but these responses evidently go against the grain of what you have been taught (probably) by your church. You are correct, however, that nothing you have to say will change ‘the Bible’ response to your OP question. Why on earth would I want to listen to something that I know - from scripture - is persistently incorrect? And so, it’s hoped that the visitors to this thread will find it interesting and get something of value out of it.
If I’ve found out anything in my 35-year tenure with ‘Christianity’ it’s that most Christians are in appalling ignorance of the very book they claim to uphold. This ignorance also very much applies more often than it should to the guy behind the pulpit. Moreover, it’s the guy behind the pulpit that most Christians put their absolute faith in. As far as the congregation is concerned, he ‘speaks for God’. And so, when someone comes along and creates ripples by rocking the boat with Bible interpretations that may differ from those that have long been absorbed into the mind it, quite naturally, makes one feel threatened and therefore defensive. We’ve seen this occur on this very thread. I’ve been called a heretic just for quoting scripture.
And so, to the visitor:
We are told in scripture that the ‘spirit’ is nothing other than ‘the breath’. It is an element. It does not live or die.
We are told in scripture that ‘the breath’ returns to God at the point of death.
We are told in scripture that Jesus ‘gave up’ his spirit (his breath) when he died. He was now ‘officially’ dead.
Christianity HINGES on the belief that Jesus DID die and therefore could not have preached to millions of other dead people in their graves who are still alive (?) awaiting the Gospel message. Christianity HINGES on the belief that Jesus rose from the dead. Dead = no longer alive.
The ‘spirit’ (the breath) of the thief on the cross also returned to God when he died. This would be consistent with scripture.
The thief went to the grave just the same as everyone else who dies. Again, consistent with scripture.
The thief WAS promised a place in Paradise (Heaven) by Jesus at a future time.
The thief did not attain Heaven that day. And so, one needs to rethink the 'today' part of Jesus' statement.
Jesus did not return to Heaven that day. In fact, Jesus did not ascend to Heaven until 40-days after the resurrection.
To the visitor, with a clear mind, do your own research on scriptural issues. There are a lot of fanciful - non-biblical - stories that have been incorporated into the Christian belief system. So be aware of this.
Kate, you are still obstinately digging in your heels on this topic by your reluctance to listen to what the Bible has to say on this topic of yours. This is not a case of our personally agreeing to disagree. We’re not talking about which sports team/singer/actor/song/movie/politician, etc. is better in our opinion than another. We are talking about what THE BIBLE has to say about the question that you asked in your original post. You have been supplied the biblical response to what is a strawman question anyway, but these responses evidently go against the grain of what you have been taught (probably) by your church. You are correct, however, that nothing you have to say will change ‘the Bible’ response to your OP question. Why on earth would I want to listen to something that I know - from scripture - is persistently incorrect? And so, it’s hoped that the visitors to this thread will find it interesting and get something of value out of it.
If I’ve found out anything in my 35-year tenure with ‘Christianity’ it’s that most Christians are in appalling ignorance of the very book they claim to uphold. This ignorance also very much applies more often than it should to the guy behind the pulpit. Moreover, it’s the guy behind the pulpit that most Christians put their absolute faith in. As far as the congregation is concerned, he ‘speaks for God’. And so, when someone comes along and creates ripples by rocking the boat with Bible interpretations that may differ from those that have long been absorbed into the mind it, quite naturally, makes one feel threatened and therefore defensive. We’ve seen this occur on this very thread. I’ve been called a heretic just for quoting scripture.
And so, to the visitor:
We are told in scripture that the ‘spirit’ is nothing other than ‘the breath’. It is an element. It does not live or die.
We are told in scripture that ‘the breath’ returns to God at the point of death.
We are told in scripture that Jesus ‘gave up’ his spirit (his breath) when he died. He was now ‘officially’ dead.
Christianity HINGES on the belief that Jesus DID die and therefore could not have preached to millions of other dead people in their graves who are still alive (?) awaiting the Gospel message. Christianity HINGES on the belief that Jesus rose from the dead. Dead = no longer alive.
The ‘spirit’ (the breath) of the thief on the cross also returned to God when he died. This would be consistent with scripture.
The thief went to the grave just the same as everyone else who dies. Again, consistent with scripture.
The thief WAS promised a place in Paradise (Heaven) by Jesus at a future time.
The thief did not attain Heaven that day. And so, one needs to rethink the 'today' part of Jesus' statement.
Jesus did not return to Heaven that day. In fact, Jesus did not ascend to Heaven until 40-days after the resurrection.
To the visitor, with a clear mind, do your own research on scriptural issues. There are a lot of fanciful - non-biblical - stories that have been incorporated into the Christian belief system. So be aware of this.
Stop trying to bully people into believing as you do. She already told you that she's done discussing it with you and you'd just have to disagree. You're obsessed with trying to control what others believe. And you are wrong in your beliefs. The Bible does NOT teach what you claim it does. Get a life or something.
Stop trying to bully people into believing as you do. You're obsessed with trying to control what others believe. And you are wrong in your beliefs. The Bible does NOT teach what you claim it does. Get a life or something.
You, Michael, are an example of those that bristle and resort to hostility when their bogus beliefs are undermined. I don't recall having twisted your arm to participate in this discussion. But as long as you chose to do so you subjected yourself to having your beliefs questioned as we all do. I would advise you in future to stay away from any topic that is likely to cause you to throw a tantrum. You clearly can't handle being corrected where necessary.
Seriously, I have absolutely no desire to control anyone. I'm participating on a forum. You, as does everyone else, have the same opportunity to counter anything that I've presented with the Bible as your source. I have not presented anything here that the Bible does not say.
As for your "Get a life or something" . . .not only unwarranted but somewhat juvenile, don't you think?
You, Michael, are an example of those that bristle and resort to hostility when their bogus beliefs are undermined. I don't recall having twisted your arm to participate in this discussion. But as long as you chose to do so you subjected yourself to having your beliefs questioned as we all do. I would advise you in future to stay away from any topic that is likely to cause you to throw a tantrum. You clearly can't handle being corrected where necessary.
Seriously, I have absolutely no desire to control anyone. I'm participating on a forum. You, as does everyone else, have the same opportunity to counter anything that I've presented with the Bible as your source. I have not presented anything here that the Bible does not say.
As for your "Get a life or something" . . .not only unwarranted but somewhat juvenile, don't you think?
You are trying to force YOUR interpretation of what the Bible is saying down everyone's throat. Your interpretation is a minority view. And you will not let it drop. Get a life.
DISCORDINANCE BETWEEN RELIGION BASED ON HISTORY VERSUS RELIGION BASED ON DOGMA
I think part of the problem is that you three (four?) have been talking about different religions.
You and Kate are describing the worldview and interpretation of ancient Christianity on this point, while RomulusXXV is describing the worldview and interpretation of a much, much later Christian movement.
This is the reason you Yours and Kates' interpretation can exist in the world of religious history while RomulusXXVs interpretation can only exist in the world of Dogmatic interpretation. It dies once it attempts to survive in the historical world of early Judeo-Christian literature.
The world of History recognizes its cousins but it barks at strangers.
You may consider taking the win and be at peace on the subject.
In any case I like some of the points you and MissKate12 have made. Good Journey.
Last edited by Clear lens; 03-29-2024 at 09:39 PM..
You are trying to force YOUR interpretation of what the Bible is saying down everyone's throat. Your interpretation is a minority view.
Yes, unfortunately it would appear so. It's especially disturbing in this thread case since no 'interpretation' is even necessary. The Bible states what it states. And the Bible is all that I've given as you well know, Michael. It's unfortunate that your anger has you resorting to lying.
Yes, I have already made it abundantly clear that the majority of people who carry a Bible have no clue what that book contains. They get their beliefs from 'their church'. You are unwittingly agreeing with this. This is why 'Christianity' needs a complete overhaul. Do away with the hundreds of so-called 'Christian denominations' that are at loggerheads with one another. Just stick with the Bible as reading material, deciphering fact from allegory, applying to one's life and mind whatever is deemed suitable, or just toss it out altogether.
Yes, unfortunately it would appear so. It's especially disturbing in this thread case since no 'interpretation' is even necessary. The Bible states what it states. And the Bible is all that I've given as you well know, Michael. It's unfortunate that your anger has you resorting to lying.
Yes, I have already made it abundantly clear that the majority of people who carry a Bible have no clue what that book contains. They get their beliefs from 'their church'. You are unwittingly agreeing with this. This is why 'Christianity' needs a complete overhaul. Do away with the hundreds of so-called 'Christian denominations' that are at loggerheads with one another. Just stick with the Bible as reading material, deciphering fact from allegory, applying to one's life and mind whatever is deemed suitable, or just toss it out altogether.
I don't lie. And you don't understand squat about what the Bible is saying. Further, since your own beliefs (soul-sleep) stem from the Seventh Day Adventist church you used to belong to, your second sentence is hypocritical.
And no, you cannot just stick with the Bible as reading material. You will never have a good understanding of the Bible without understanding the ancient Near Eastern culture to which the Bible belongs.
DISCORDINANCE BETWEEN RELIGION BASED ON HISTORY VERSUS RELIGION BASED ON DOGMA
I think part of the problem is that you three (four?) have been talking about different religions.
You and Kate are describing the worldview and interpretation of ancient Christianity on this point, while RomulusXXV is describing the worldview and interpretation of a much, much later Christian movement.
This is the reason you Yours and Kates' interpretation can exist in the world of religious history while RomulusXXVs interpretation can only exist in the world of Dogmatic interpretation. It dies once it attempts to survive in the historical world of early Judeo-Christian literature.
The world of History recognizes its cousins but it barks at strangers.
You may consider taking the win and be at peace on the subject.
In any case I like some of the points you and MissKate12 have made. Good Journey.
Yes, that's part of the problem. Good advice on taking the win. Post 595 was a good post by the way.
My work was in medicine so I have a little bit of physics (not quantum, just very basic physics), I know just enough to know there are people who hear the music of physics and are able to make spiritual/physical connections that are wonderful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
My Synthesis places our Spirits (consciousness) at the level of quanta (essentially light and radiation) and these seem to be trying to convey that from a nonscientific mindset:
Every once in a while, such insightful statements make connections in me as well. I have always been intrigued by the concept in the Pistis Sophia text where it says that Spirit is "self-willed matter". I don't think I have the background like you, but have wondered if a physics major could make the connection between the characteristic of matter having a "self will" to other characteristics of matter.
Just as some matter (iron) has the characteristics of magnetism, and other materials don't have this specific characteristic, perhaps on some physical level, certain types of matter (which we call "spirit") has the physical characteristic of "self will" or "intelligence".
Even learning about fractals was eye opening for me that perhaps people who are smarter than I and actually are able to create physical models of understanding living things as having shared characteristics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The reference to the spirit "formed and imprinted in the likeness and type of the body" reminds me of my use of the movie Shallow Hall to reflect the differences the character of our Spirit would have on the appearance of our spiritual body.
I honestly had to look up and read the plot of "Shallow Hal" to understand your meaning. Again, you make me feel some people can be gifted to see an immediate connection between "spiritual" and "physical" more accurately, or perhaps more efficiently than others.
I have not visited this forum for about 11 years since restarting recently. I was reviewing a post from 11 years prev and it was me saying to someone that I liked your posts. Kuddos.
I hope your spiritual Journey is a wonderful one.
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