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Miss Kate, I believe that you believe that Abraham and all of the patriarchs, as well as all people who have ever died are not alive, living in Paradise (which I believe to be heaven). But if they are, then they have not perished. There is no need for them to be resurrected because they are living forever, the saved ones being comforted from what I understand you believe. My belief is that the apostle Paul taught that all people who have ever lived and died are not alive. They are dead awaiting the resurrection. They will not come back to life until they are resurrected out of death, just as Jesus was. They must be resurrected, raised to life by Jesus in order to live again. God bless.
If the dead do not rise ... Christ has not risen. He is still dead.
If Christ has not risen, your faith is futile. You are still in your sins.
Those who have fallen asleep in Christ, those who have died in Christ, have perished.
No resurrection= we have perished
vs. 19 if in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the pitable.
Meaning that if this life is all there is, due to there being no resurrection, as these people were claiming, we are the most pitable of all men.
We will perish, if there is no resurrection. We will not be living in Paradise. We will continue to remain dead. But since Jesus was raised to life by the Father, we will be raised also. We will not perish.
We do live beyond the grave, when we are resurrected, not before this event.
God bless.
1 Corinthians 15 proves life beyond the grave , but it does not prove that there is no consciousness prior to the resurrection.
We know the body dies, but the spirit returns to God. I don’t believe it can be proven that the spirit which returns to God is not conscious. We face judgement when we die (Hebrews 9:27). One would have to be aware when being judged.
Hey Shana, thanks for the discussion, but I need to get some things done. We’ll chat again. Have a blessed day!
Kate
PS I sent you a DM.
Last edited by MissKate12; 04-01-2024 at 10:32 AM..
1 Corinthians 15 proves life beyond the grave , but it does not prove that there is no consciousness prior to the resurrection.
We know the body dies, but the spirit returns to God. I don’t believe it can be proven that the spirit which returns to God is not conscious. We face judgement when we die (Hebrews 9:27). One would have to be aware when being judged.
Hey Shana, thanks for the discussion, but I need to get some things done. We’ll chat again. Have a blessed day!
Kate
PS I sent you a DM.
Hi Kate, I believe that judgment occurs when we are resurrected. I believe that the apostle Paul when we teaches that if the dead are not raised, then we have perished. Death is described as the last enemy in the scriptures. We will have to agree to disagree but thank you for responding. God bless.
Hi Kate, I believe that judgment occurs when we are resurrected. I believe that the apostle Paul when we teaches that if the dead are not raised, then we have perished. Death is described as the last enemy in the scriptures. We will have to agree to disagree but thank you for responding. God bless.
Yes, if not for the resurrection of Jesus, we all perish.
Perish means to destroy; utterly destroy. It does not mean cease to exist.
Your thoughts on Hebrews 9:27?
Last edited by MissKate12; 04-01-2024 at 11:29 AM..
Yes, if not for the resurrection of Jesus, we all perish.
Perish means to destroy; utterly destroy. It does not mean cease to exist.
Your thoughts on Hebrews 9:27?
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
When Adam sinned, the penalty was death. The opposite of life is death. We no longer live, when we die.
Genesis 3
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
Adam perished, when we died, returning to the soil. He no longer lived. God was not just speaking to Adam's body when He spoke these words. He spoke to the man, Adam.
We are dead, destroyed permanently , no longer living. until we are raised by the Lord.
1 Cor. 15:
12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith also is in vain. 15 Moreover, we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified [g]against God that He raised [h]Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 [i]If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied./I]
20 But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man death came, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [i]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order.
According to the apostle Paul, we are to be pitied above all men, if we have hoped in Christ only in this life. There is no other life, if there is no resurrection.
Hebrews 9:27 KJ21 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment, ASV And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment.
Jesus tells us when the judgment occurs.
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, [i]a time is coming and [j]even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is [k]the Son of Man. 28 Do not be amazed at this; for [l]a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
We die first. We are resurrected after this. The judgment comes after the resurrection. God bless.
I don’t think it’s either. It’s called cognitive dissonance, Michael. It’s very hard to overcome. We all experience it to some degree. I’ve concluded it’s better to walk away when you feel you’ve said all you can say. I’ve had to do that with a couple of posters.
Cognitive dissonance? Perhaps. But Jesus himself is recorded as saying that the soul does not cease to exist or die when the body dies. Yes, he goes on to say that the soul can be destroyed in Gehenna, but even then, the English word 'destroy' translates a Greek word that can simply mean to exist in a lost or ruined state. It need not be understood as no longer existing. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus says not to fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul (psuché). That alone should tell any thinking person that the soul does not die with the body. And Peter in 2 Peter 1:13-15 wrote about his coming death and of laying aside and departing from his earthly dwelling, a reference to departing from his body. And Paul's statements of being absent from the body (there's a 'self' that can be absent from the physical body) and at home with the Lord. Where is the Lord? He's not in a grave somewhere. He's not non-existent. The Lord is in heaven. And John's statements in Revelation about seeing Tribulational martyrs in heaven which you can't dismiss as symbolism. Symbolism for what?
Even in the Old Testament reference is made to existence after physical death. There's the prohibition against contacting the dead which King Saul did anyway when he had a medium call up the dead prophet Samuel. We know from archeological evidence that the ancient Hebrews believed in continued existence after physical death because they placed the personal belongings of the deceased in the grave with them presumably so they would be used by those in Sheol.
But people who believe in soul-sleep simply ignore or attempt to explain away these places in which the Bible speaks of an intermediate state of life after death before resurrection.
I myself don't fear death, and sometimes even welcome it even if it should turn out to be absolutely final forever as in no resurrection. But according to the Bible the soul survives the death of the body in an intermediate state before the resurrection event. And again, mainstream Christianity recognizes that the Bible says this.
Yes, if not for the resurrection of Jesus, we all perish.
Perish means to destroy; utterly destroy. It does not mean cease to exist.
Also, Miss Kate, I have shared earlier, that when we die we no longer live. I believe that we still exist as our bodies return to dust, and our spirit (not conscious living spirit but breath of life) returns to the Father. I also believe that the imprint of our being, or essence remains (not as a living being) but as something intangible that the Father retains. The scriptures teach that from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things. So all elements/aspects return to the Father. We no longer exist as living beings until the Lord raises us out of death never to die again. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 04-01-2024 at 12:43 PM..
Jesus died and He was raised to life. Physical death involves the death of the body and the soul. The soul dies. The person dies.
Hades is not a good place to be. It is associated with death, the grave. It is the realm of the dead, the condition or state of the dead and is defined as the Unseen State. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15.
51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:
53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;
54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;
55 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' Young's Literal
Hades and Death are done away with, defeated, when we are resurrected to immortality. They are not defeated while we are in the death state, the Hadean state.
David says as recorded in Acts 2
Acts. 2
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:
“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[e]
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’
Here are a few things revealed in this passage of scripture:
1. It was God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge to hand Jesus over to be crucified.
2. God raised Jesus from the dead, freeing Him from the agony of death. Death is an enemy. It is not a transition to another life form. God freed Jesus from this agony of the enemy, death.
3. God did not abandon Jesus to the realm of the dead. Being in the realm of the dead is not a good place to be. It is not a place where we want to remain. It is not a place where we live. It is death, the cessation of life. The Father did not leave, abandon Jesus there. Jesus was not living with the Father as a spirit upon death, or David would not have prophesied concerning Jesus, " You will not abandon me to the realm of the dead."
God bless
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 04-01-2024 at 12:57 PM..
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
Well, for anyone who is interested, let's see a couple of examples of how the New Testament uses the word 'apollumi.'
[Example one] Luke 9:10 For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (lost - apollymi).”
Jesus is referring to people who are alive. They exist but are simply in a lost state of spiritual death. They are very much physically alive.
[Example two] Luke 15:9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost (lost - apollymi) coin.’
The coin was lost. It still had physical existence, but was lost to the owner of the coin but then was found.
In neither example did the word apollymi refer to something that no longer existed. It simply referred to being in a lost state.
Lets look at a third example.
[Example three] Mark 2:22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins—and the wine is destroyed (destroyed - apollymi), and so are the skins. But new wine is for fresh wineskins.”
In this third example, the wine is not destroyed in the sense of no longer existing. Both the wine and the wineskins still exist physically but they are now in a ruined condition.
The meaning of a word is determined by its usage, and in the New Testament the word apollymi is often if not always, used for things that exist but are in a lost or ruined condition.
Apollymi does not in and of itself mean to not exist. The word is used for people who are lost but still physically alive, for a lost coin which still exists, for wine and wineskins that still exist but are now ruined, etc.
Look at how words are actually used in the Bible. The meaning of a word is determined by how it is used.
You either get this or you don't.
Last edited by Michael Way; 04-01-2024 at 01:47 PM..
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