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Would there be a better time when things are little less rough?
Maybe so, thanks twinspin. I think I need to go take a nap. I have a funny feeling that the weird happenings of this day are not quite over yet. I would like to hear your thoughts so please feel free to post them here.
The pre-millennialist view, which I tend to hold to, says that there will be a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, after the rapture, after the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, and the seven year Great Tribulation.
Being that the Old Testament foreshadows the New, it seems clear to me. There are places in scripture where a day is as 1,000 years and places where 1,000 years are as a day.
We know from the account of creation in Genesis that one day was a literal 24 hour day because each those days end with, "so the evening and the morning were the first (second, third, etc.,) day." Evening and morning are a single day. It was six literal days to create the earth and a literal day of rest. If each of those six days of work represent 1,000 earth years then...
Adam to Abraham: 2,000 years, or 2 days.
Abraham to Jesus: 2,000 years or 2 days.
Jesus to present day: 2,000 years or 2 days.
Total = 6,000 years or 6 days, plus or minus the years of discrepancy as to when calendars were changed and disputes over exactly when the real calendar started. (There is a span of 6 to 12 years that are in disagreement.)
Thus, the 1,000 year Milennial Reign is the 7th day, the day of rest. Being that the 6,000 earth years (which lends to the "young earth" belief) are basically over, then, yes, the Lord could return at any time.
We do know that we are in the season of His return, but, we are also instructed to live every day on earth as if we had the whole of our lives to live here and to not neglect doing so.
Just my thoughts. Take 'em or leave 'em. I'm not here to convince or debate anyone on it.
I can see why some possibly in the past would have a problem with Bible prophecy and things to come, because just in the last 60 or so years have things started to happen. One world government? it wasnt even a possiblity until after the formation of the UN (united nations). How bout Israel? Up until 1947 it would not have been possible to imagine Israel becoming a nation again. Fervent heat? excluding the sun and stars there was nothing capable of producing heat like that until the atomic bomb. How about a million man army? China now has that ability to field a million man army. I dare not say that I understand a 1/1000th of Bible prophecy, but I cant help but compare the majors of it and see that while we cant put God on a timeline, we can see things are starting to shake up. Be ready, keep our eyes on Jesus. It may not be tomorrow when he comes for everyone, but it could be tomorrow for any of us to meet our maker.
I can see why some possibly in the past would have a problem with Bible prophecy and things to come, because just in the last 60 or so years have things started to happen. One world government? it wasnt even a possiblity until after the formation of the UN (united nations). How bout Israel? Up until 1947 it would not have been possible to imagine Israel becoming a nation again. Fervent heat? excluding the sun and stars there was nothing capable of producing heat like that until the atomic bomb. How about a million man army? China now has that ability to field a million man army. I dare not say that I understand a 1/1000th of Bible prophecy, but I cant help but compare the majors of it and see that while we cant put God on a timeline, we can see things are starting to shake up. Be ready, keep our eyes on Jesus. It may not be tomorrow when he comes for everyone, but it could be tomorrow for any of us to meet our maker.
Exactly, Arguy. That's what I've been trying to stress. Biblical prophecy is extremely important to our generation, no doubt. But no matter what anyone believes about it, what about the FACT that we are not guaranteed one more day?
And since you brought up Israel, it's been 60 years since Israel became a nation again. That's "6" decades. Six creation days, six thousand years, six decades......we have entered into the 7th element of rest. Like SL said in his post, the only real unknown is the discrepancy of the few years in the calendar.
DOTL,
In the OT, there are prophecies about the end of the world. Peter referred to one of them at Pentecost, Acts 2:17. As far as God is concerned, the end times started with Jesus. Hebrew 1:1-2 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
There are times in the OT when prophecies speak to a specific event to Israel (the exile by Babylons and the first coming) or to the end of the world... The NT has the same (see Matthew 13:39-40 for the two different time frames). Sometimes the line between time events flow from one to another very identifiably, some times the line between them is very thin. "In various ways" that is the nature of prophecies. Case in point, Jesus' name.
Look up the prophecy of Jesus by Isaiah, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6. When was Jesus ever literally called by these names or have a goverment on his shoulders? Yet we know that Jesus is 'Immanuel' - "God with us".
Prophecy in some cases is told symbolically for a literal event or time. The promise land promised to OT Israel was not literally overflowing with "milk and honey".
Which brings us to Revelation. Revelation is symbolic for a literal event, that event is the entire NT period. Jesus shows John (who is bound by time and space- like us) things and events from Gods perspective...which He has no time and space boundries. That is why John's descriptions are so indescribable. He keeps repeating, 'well it looks something like....' there is just no accurate way of describing it in human terms. That is also the point of the numbers in Revelation. For example they are symbolic (3, 4, 6, 7, 10, 12, 666, 1000) are all symbolic. Large numbers in Revelation seem to indicate that they represent multiples of smaller numbers. Why? there will be more than 144,000 believers in heaven.
Which what makes what I say at times unclear. I'll agree with those who believe that Christ's second coming has yet to happen. I'll agree with those that Revelation was written for all generations, not just for "THAT" generation or for only the 21 century.
I would agree with those who believe as Paul did, that we are now closer to the end than when we first started to believe.
I would agree with those who believe as Peter did, 2 Peter 3:11-12 "You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.
INLC once pointed out that Jesus' feet never touched the ground at the rapture. She is right. Probably in not the way she has thought, but because the Bible says there will be no ground for Jesus or anybody to touch. "That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat" Raptured means "to be caught up". That would make sense about Jesus' feet never touching the ground, since the elements are melted.
2 Peter 3:10-12 there is only 1 "day of the Lord" not a multiple "days". The next time Jesus returns, that's it, thats THE day. On that day, all will be resurrected, all will be gathered ("raptured"), all will be judged. When that "Day" happens, time as we know it will cease. A day will be like a thousand years, and thousands years will be like a day.
Yes, we the bride await the return, THE return.
Last edited by twin.spin; 06-18-2008 at 11:36 PM..
Reason: clarification
DOTL,
In the OT, there are prophecies about the end of the world. Peter referred to one of them at Pentecost, Acts 2:17. As far as God is concerned, the end times started with Jesus. Hebrew 1:1-2 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
There are times in the OT when prophecies speak to a specific event to Israel (the exile by Babylons and the first coming) or to the end of the world... The NT has the same (see Matthew 13:39-40 for the two different time frames). Sometimes the line between time events flow from one to another very identifiably, some times the line between them is very thin. "In various ways" that is the nature of prophecies. Case in point, Jesus' name.
Look up the prophecy of Jesus by Isaiah, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6. When was Jesus ever literally called by these names or have a goverment on his shoulders? Yet we know that Jesus is 'Immanuel' - "God with us".
Prophecy in some cases is told symbolically for a literal event or time. The promise land promised to OT Israel was not literally overflowing with "milk and honey".
Which brings us to Revelation. Revelation is symbolic for a literal event, that event is the entire NT period. Jesus shows John (who is bound by time and space- like us) things and events from Gods perspective...which He has no time and space boundries. That is why John's descriptions are so indescribable. He keeps repeating, 'well it looks something like....' there is just no accurate way of describing it in human terms. That is also the point of the numbers in Revelation. For example they are symbolic (3, 4, 6, 7, 10, 12, 666, 1000) are all symbolic. Large numbers in Revelation seem to indicate that they represent multiples of smaller numbers. Why? there will be more than 144,000 believers in heaven.
Which what makes what I say at times unclear. I'll agree with those who believe that Christ's second coming has yet to happen. I'll agree with those that Revelation was written for all generations, not just for "THAT" generation or for only the 21 century.
I would agree with those who believe as Paul did, that we are now closer to the end than when we first started to believe.
I would agree with those who believe as Peter did, 2 Peter 3:11-12 "You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.
INLC once pointed out that Jesus' feet never touched the ground at the rapture. She is right. Probably in not the way she has thought, but because the Bible says there will be no ground for Jesus or anybody to touch. "That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat" Raptured means "to be caught up". That would make sense about Jesus' feet never touching the ground, since the elements are melted.
2 Peter 3:10-12 there is only 1 "day of the Lord" not a multiple "days". The next time Jesus returns, that's it, thats THE day. On that day, all will be resurrected, all will be gathered ("raptured"), all will be judged. When that "Day" happens, time as we know it will cease. A day will be like a thousand years, and thousands years will be like a day.
Yes, we the bride await the return, THE return.
Thanks for sharing, TS. I have a better understanding of where you are coming from now. And I understand your thinking on this because like I said I have family members that don't believe there will be a rapture and that we all will have to live through the tribulation.
It seems clear to me that the rapture is a seperate event not to be confused with the 2nd coming, and clear to others that the 2nd coming is the only time Jesus will be returning, marking the end of all things. The latter may be true, and I'm ready for either scenario. I think what you said in another post is true....we will all be very surprised at how it actually happens, but we await the same thing no matter how we believe things will happen...Jesus' return.
Can you break it down, how you believe things will happen? Where do you think we are right now as far as Biblical prophecy and the end times? I agree that a lot of Revelation is symbolic. However, I don't believe that the numbers concerning the literal 1,000 year reign are symbolic, or the 7 day creation. I think 666 is symbolic, and the 144,000 as you mentioned.
My thing is numbers. I've always said that I see God in numbers. God speaks to me through numbers. I have an uncanny ability to remember numbers. I'm very interested in what others think about the relation of numbers and Biblical prophesies. I have numbers running through my head right now....it's maddening sometimes, actually. I hated math in school, and I'm not talking about me being some kind of mathematical genius. I'm just constantly seeing the world in numbers. I don't know why I'm telling you this, except to let you know how my mind works.
I don't know why we all interpret the Bible differently because I feel that all Christians who are genuine get help from the Holy Spirit. It's a mystery, really, and may actually have a lot to do with our individual personalities and perceptions of things....like me with numbers. But we all think we are right. Once in a while we run across someone who thinks like we do, and we cling to that.
We can all agree on the most important thing....and that's Jesus Christ. I try very hard to make Him the focus of all my posts because without Him what we "think" means nothing. That's why the debates and arguments with non-believers is pointless when it comes to the Bible. They will never understand the true nature of the LIVING Word of God without accepting Christ and having the Holy Spirit's guidance. The Word is alive.....it's breathing. I would never discourage a person from reading the Bible, no matter what their faith....but I would encourage accepting Christ as Savior to be able to understand better what the scriptures mean and before trying to debate it with Christians.
Now I'm just babbling. I expect disagreements to everything I say. But I'm very prepared to back it up with scriptures and why I believe like I do. That doesn't seem to matter though to non-believers, since they don't believe in the Bible. But they have no problem quoting from that book that they don't believe in, though!!! I find that to be extremely contradictory. Thanks again for sharing, TS.
DOTL,
This is just IMO..... Matthew 24:37"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man"
The way I was taught to understand this, the evilness, morality, the attitude of people at the end times will be like in Noah's day. Though the people are warned, they do not listen. Yet people were about doing their normal activities. Nothing gave them any indication of the judgement that was about to happen.
Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the day of the Son of Man.
Luke 17:26, 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
Matthew 24:39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.
Luke 17:28, 29"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all."
Luke 17:30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed"
Do you see a pattern? God gathered up Noah & his family, 2 of each kind (a mini rapture), then destruction
Angles gathered (a mini rapture) Lot, then destruction on the same day
Angles gather (the rapture) all the people, assemble in the air with all the dead now resurrected, see Jesus coming while the destruction of the world by fire is taking place. Everything (even time and space) as we know it ceases to exist.
Matthew 24:30, 31 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
Not to offend,but scripture does not teach the idea of God providing some literal "time table" for the last day. We only know about the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem being fulfilled in 70 AD because we can look back. Prior to 70AD nobody knew when it would take place. The same will be at Jesus' 2nd coming. Until we can look back, we do not know. Then it will be obvious.
Where are we right now? I don't know. But what I do know is that we are 1 day closer. And that by Godly living we speed its coming. I sense that like in child birth, the closer to delivery the more frequent and intense the pains are. So are the "pains" of this world. The flooding, earthquakes, tornados, droughts, heat seems to be more intense and frequent. "People believe in God but deny his power..." sounds like the global warming crowd. Muslim faith the fastest growing in the world, LDS growth, the apthey of Europe, the sex crazed people in US....if this not nearing the end.... but then, I don't know.
DOTL,
This is just IMO..... Matthew 24:37"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man"
The way I was taught to understand this, the evilness, morality, the attitude of people at the end times will be like in Noah's day. Though the people are warned, they do not listen. Yet people were about doing their normal activities. Nothing gave them any indication of the judgement that was about to happen.
Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the day of the Son of Man.
Luke 17:26, 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
Matthew 24:39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.
Luke 17:28, 29"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all."
Luke 17:30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed"
Do you see a pattern? God gathered up Noah & his family, 2 of each kind (a mini rapture), then destruction
Angles gathered (a mini rapture) Lot, then destruction on the same day
Angles gather (the rapture) all the people, assemble in the air with all the dead now resurrected, see Jesus coming while the destruction of the world by fire is taking place. Everything (even time and space) as we know it ceases to exist.
Yes, I see what you mean. And there is absolutely no way I can prove you are wrong. This is what I base my belief on of a rapture before the tribulation. I'm assuming that you believe in the 7 year tribulation and the rise of the AntiChrist, otherwise this wouldn't make much sense.
Matthew 24:22 (speaking of the signs of the end of the age)
"If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."
The "elect" in this particular verse IMO is referring to those who are saved now and are to be spared all of the tribulation. The "elect" mentioned in the scripture below, Matthew 24:31, IMO refers to those who will accept Christ during the tribulation. There will be martyrs for Christ during the tribulation (the Bible says this), and some will survive to the end.
Now with that said, there is no specific time mentioned as to WHEN the elect's days will be shortened. I believe before the tribulation, some believe mid-way through (3 1/2 years) before the true colors of the AntiChrist are revealed, and like you, not at all. I just can't believe that God would allow his elect to suffer any more than we already have. But I will, if He so desires.
Quote:
Matthew 24:30, 31 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they willgather his electfrom the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
Not to offend,but scripture does not teach the idea of God providing some literal "time table" for the last day. We only know about the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem being fulfilled in 70 AD because we can look back. Prior to 70AD nobody knew when it would take place. The same will be at Jesus' 2nd coming. Until we can look back, we do not know. Then it will be obvious.
No offense taken. I feel that the scriptures do give a timetable for the season, but not the exact date of anything else. There is nothing else Biblically that needs to be fulfilled before Christ's return (the rapture). It's all been fulfilled. It is going to happen anyday IMO. The AntiChrist and the tribulation will begin the minute the "elect" are gone. I view this as God's amazing grace to allow people a second chance to repent. A whole seven years, to be exact!!
Quote:
Where are we right now? I don't know. But what I do know is that we are 1 day closer. And that by Godly living we speed its coming. I sense that like in child birth, the closer to delivery the more frequent and intense the pains are. So are the "pains" of this world. The flooding, earthquakes, tornados, droughts, heat seems to be more intense and frequent. "People believe in God but deny his power..." sounds like the global warming crowd. Muslim faith the fastest growing in the world, LDS growth, the apthey of Europe, the sex crazed people in US....if this not nearing the end.... but then, I don't know.
This I completely agree with....all of it. But, like I mentioned before, I see God in numbers. And, I see numbers. The Bible does not allow us to go about throwing around specific days and hours. That's wrong. This is why I am so adamant about warning. There's more to it than just "what I believe". Thanks for spelling it out for me, TS. YOUR reasoning I can understand, if you know what I mean.
I don't think you are mean spirited, just misinformed. And yes I and others do boldly say Jesus is coming SOON.
You are right. I am not mean-spirited. I merely love God's Word and seek to know it and defend it. You can boldly say Jesus is coming soon all you want, ILNC, but, you will always be wrong.
Again, I challenge you to allow the Bible to use the word "soon" (and other time indicators) in the same sense that you use it.
James said "The coming of the Lord is at hand" (5:8). Will you let his words have the same sense you give them?
Perhaps, but if even one person has re-evaluated the grave errors of futurism, it is not in vain. God is in control!
Preterist
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I have a funny feeling that the weird happenings of this day are not quite over yet. I would like to hear your thoughts so please feel free to post them here.
