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June has (no joke) read this thread through three times. She's still not getting it. (She may be somewhat close, but with June, one just never knows...)
So please, indulge me: Explain to June what it is you are saying? If I showed up at your door 20 minutes from now, and said: "Freedom, I'm here to understand. Give it to me" what would you say to me? (Over a cup of coffee, of course!)
June has (no joke) read this thread through three times. She's still not getting it. (She may be somewhat close, but with June, one just never knows...)
So please, indulge me: Explain to June what it is you are saying? If I showed up at your door 20 minutes from now, and said: "Freedom, I'm here to understand. Give it to me" what would you say to me? (Over a cup of coffee, of course!)
Take gentle explanatory care.
I'd say that God's vision for man has never changed, He desires us to have a fulness of Joy (Edenic estate).
A fulness of Joy is not possible in negativity (sin). Sin brings dispair and death.
All of the Prophets and Seers (messengers of God) have presented a clear message that sin does not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Jesus taught that if we love Him, then we will keep His commandments...which are of Love.
In doing so, the Holy Spirit is given to those that abide in His love. With the power of the Holy Spirit comes a purifying, even translation. The gift of the Holy Spirit is to lead one into All truth.
Jesus said that He could do nothing but what He saw the Father do.
He also said that the things that He did we could do and more.
Jesus is Perfect, has all the heavenly powers and is One with God.
THis same promise is available to All who live His teachings of Love.
1Cr 13:1 ¶ Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Cr 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Cr 13:4 Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up (Pride),
1Cr 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Cr 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Cr 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Cr 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Cr 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.
The whole key is living this definition of love "THe pure love of Christ"
If one can do this, there is nothing that is impossible.
If one can desire this above all else, it will happen.
We reap what we sow.
He who asks, shall receive.
Our ears have grown dull of hearing these great promises, but they still stand, waiting to be fulfilled.
By the way, i set out the good china and the best roast for you June.
Thoughts are seeds, the mind is a garden. Pull the weeds and the fruit will grow.
Much of the time we are on auto pilot, letting the mind wander where ever it wishes to go, when the thoughts mingle with our emotions, the seed is planted. And whatever falls from our brooding becomes our reality.
This is why we are to renew our minds, in order to sow good seed for the glory of the kingdom, which we can be part of.
When our minds have become prone to thinking only the most beautiful, loving, kind and positive thoughts, our hearts will join in and send out the love of Christ that is within us. Then Christ can fill us with more, until we don't have room enough to receive anymore, and at that point we become One with Him.
By the way, i set out the good china and the best roast for you June.
Aw, Freedom, you shouldn't have gone to all that trouble! But since you did, I'll be bringing a vintage bottle of French wine. (Red, of course, to go with the roast.)
Now here's the problem June has with all of this, however:
We're human, Freedom. June hates to break it to you, but at the end of the day, we are all fundamentally human. Even if June follows your line of reasoning, she's a tad uncomfortable with this notion that we can attain perfection. For one thing, it's frought with frustration. June may be able to understand it on a purely intellectual level, in terms of theology and metaphysics, but she is not quite buying into the practical application.
Jesus came and died for the imperfection of this world. We continue to live in an imperfect world on a daily basis. Even your ideological counterparts, the Buddhists, who have a very similiar notion (yes, they do; you'd be surprised) have enormous difficulty attaining that state of perfection. (And to be honest with you, it was only after I dredged up the analogous understanding of "perfection" from Buddhism from the dark archives of my mind that it came together and made sense to me, believe it or not.) I think I get it...But here's where you have really lost me:
If you have the capacity to be "perfect" then you don't need Jesus Christ. I realize that you are becoming perfect by and through and because of him. I do. However, if you are telling me that a human being already possesses the capacity to be perfect, then what I am hearing is that there is absolutely no necessity for the likes of someone like June to pursue any belief system such as Christianity. Why would I? Because the necessity has already cancelled itself out. If human beings were able to achieve perfection on their own, there would have been no need for Jesus Christ.
That's the problem June's having with all of this.
Take gentle paradoxical care.
P.S. June was running late. Hope the roast didn't overcook. Leave the light on. June will be that adorable atheist ringing your door bell. You'll know me by the vintage bottle of Chardonney.
June has (no joke) read this thread through three times. She's still not getting it. (She may be somewhat close, but with June, one just never knows...)
So please, indulge me: Explain to June what it is you are saying? If I showed up at your door 20 minutes from now, and said: "Freedom, I'm here to understand. Give it to me" what would you say to me? (Over a cup of coffee, of course!)
Take gentle explanatory care.
June,
In all due respect to Freedom, the reason this cannot be grasped is because it is untrue. Believers are warned to stay away from false doctrines, and this is definitely a false doctrine.
Aw, Freedom, you shouldn't have gone to all that trouble! But since you did, I'll be bringing a vintage bottle of French wine. (Red, of course, to go with the roast.)
Now here's the problem June has with all of this, however:
We're human, Freedom. June hates to break it to you, but at the end of the day, we are all fundamentally human. Even if June follows your line of reasoning, she's a tad uncomfortable with this notion that we can attain perfection. For one thing, it's frought with frustration. June may be able to understand it on a purely intellectual level, in terms of theology and metaphysics, but she is not quite buying into the practical application.
Jesus came and died for the imperfection of this world. We continue to live in an imperfect world on a daily basis. Even your ideological counterparts, the Buddhists, who have a very similiar notion (yes, they do; you'd be surprised) have enormous difficulty attaining that state of perfection. (And to be honest with you, it was only after I dredged up the analogous understanding of perfection from Buddhism that it came together and made sense to me, believe it or not.) I think I get it...But here's where you have really lost me:
If you have the capacity to be "perfect" then you don't need Jesus Christ. I realize that you are becoming perfect by and through and because of him. I do. However, if you are telling me that a human being already possesses the capacity to be perfect, then what I am hearing is that there is absolutely no necessity for the likes of someone like June to pursue any belief system such as Christianity. Why would I? Because the necessity has already cancelled itself out. If human beings were able to achieve perfection on their own, there would have been no need for Jesus Christ.
That's the problem June's having with all of this.
Take gentle paradoxical care.
P.S. June was running late. Hope the roast didn't overcook. Leave the light on. June will be that adorable atheist ringing your door bell. You'll know me by the vintage bottle of Chardonney.
Excellent, June!!!! There's no Christian that could have said it better than the above. June's got it going on!!
This is why we are to renew our minds, in order to sow good seed for the glory of the kingdom, which we can be part of.
Christ that is within us. we become One with Him.
Which is Joy unspeakalbe.
With all due respect, (and you know I mean that, Freedom) you just wrote, above, what is perhaps a near accurate translation of, and merging of two traditions:
You described, almost perfectly, the experience of nirvana.
(Which is something June finds profoundly interesting/ironic. That's a good thing.)
Aw, Freedom, you shouldn't have gone to all that trouble! But since you did, I'll be bringing a vintage bottle of French wine. (Red, of course, to go with the roast.)
See now that's perfect. Not so hard is it....
Quote:
Now here's the problem June has with all of this, however:
We're human, Freedom. June hates to break it to you, but at the end of the day, we are all fundamentally human. Even if June follows your line of reasoning, she's a tad uncomfortable with this notion that we can attain perfection. For one thing, it's frought with frustration. June may be able to understand it on a purely intellectual level, in terms of theology and metaphysics, but she is not quite buying into the practical application.
The practical application transcends the physical. If we believe Jesus was/is perfect and He taught that we could do what He does and More... then its possible.
modern day believers just havn't developed the belief yet, it has been lost in the traditions of the Fathers.
As well i completely agree with you, if it was a purely physical pursuit. There would be no chance of success.
The Spirit is the key.
Quote:
Jesus came and died for the imperfection of this world. We continue to live in an imperfect world on a daily basis.
yes, but He also lived and taught, and the truths He taught were blinding when not seen with Spiritual eyes. We must go deeper than the flesh in order to see the impossible come into being.
Man thought many things were impossible, and yet, everyday we overcome physical, mental, and spiritual challenges. When we finally come to the point that there is nothing that can't be overcome, then the fulness will be reality.
Quote:
Even your ideological counterparts, the Buddhists, who have a very similiar notion (yes, they do; you'd be surprised) have enormous difficulty attaining that state of perfection. (And to be honest with you, it was only after I dredged up the analogous understanding of "perfection" from Buddhism from the dark archives of my mind that it came together and made sense to me, believe it or not.) I think I get it...But here's where you have really lost me:
I'm familiar with Buddhism, and it has had many successes.
Quote:
If you have the capacity to be "perfect" then you don't need Jesus Christ.
God gave the capacity, Jesus taught the way, and He is the way. His name means, "I shall be powerful when annointed with light" which is spirit. When we take His name upon us, we grow from grace to grace into the perfect day, even the day of our perfecting.
The apostles were annointed and they fulfilled their missions, some to martyrdom, some still walk the earth.
Quote:
I realize that you are becoming perfect by and through and because of him. I do. However, if you are telling me that a human being already possesses the capacity to be perfect, then what I am hearing is that there is absolutely no necessity for the likes of someone like June to pursue any belief system such as Christianity. Why would I? Because the necessity has already cancelled itself out. If human beings were able to achieve perfection on their own, there would have been no need for Jesus Christ.
Can't do it on our own, only by the teachings of Christ and receiving a fulness of the Holy Spirit. Our part is to Seek First, Be diligent, Hunger and thirst after righteouness. Ask, Seek, And Knock. It is through our relationship with divinity that we learn the ways of God.
Quote:
That's the problem June's having with all of this.
Take gentle paradoxical care.
I hope its a little clearer.
Quote:
P.S. June was running late. Hope the roast didn't overcook. Leave the light on. June will be that adorable atheist ringing your door bell. You'll know me by the vintage bottle of Chardonney.
There will be other meals to share...lol
godspeed,
freedom
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Because June just needs to understand this one:
