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"In other words, when we live the Christian life we are transformed, and Christ’s indwelling builds upon our fallen nature. It is not possible to be "good" by our own will power. But grace builds on nature, and our nature is strengthened by practicing virtue. That is much tougher than just accepting the precepts of the faith. We are called to assent with conviction and commitment to follow the person of Jesus Christ and to obey his will in our lives."
South American, African, Asian...RC Churches... and Italy/Rome is more conservative than the US Church.
"South American, African, Asian...RC Churches" They have alot of people no doubt, but no money. Chances are once the second or third generation climbs the economic/education ladder they will be just like Americans. During the late 1800's and early 1900's American Catholics were the same.
Many came from Europe thru Ellis Island and settled in their respected Polish, Italian,Irish etc communities in New York City, Newark N.J and surrounding cities. They were poor and uneducated for the most part, but they did have their local Church which was the hub of their activities. The term used to call these communities and not meant in a negative sense was the "Catholic Getto"
They worked hard, sacraficed, sent their kids to college and moved out to the suburbs, they are what we see today the American Church.
"Italy/Rome is more conservative than the US Church"
You would think so but I don't think that is the case. At least from some of the articles I have read. If I find any of the articles I will post them.
"In other words, when we live the Christian life we are transformed, and Christ’s indwelling builds upon our fallen nature. It is not possible to be "good" by our own will power. But grace builds on nature, and our nature is strengthened by practicing virtue. That is much tougher than just accepting the precepts of the faith. We are called to assent with conviction and commitment to follow the person of Jesus Christ and to obey his will in our lives."
I have no problem with that, I always ask myself what would Jesus say/do.
what has Luther to do with this discussion? btw he did have some valid points, maybe if the Church at the time handled the situation better,afterall there was some bad behavior on the Churchs' part thru out history, no? maybe there would not have been a schism.
My husband was raised Catholic, he refused to be confirmed and quit attending church because he was unhappy about certain changes being made in the liturgy. He was confirmed into the Episcopal faith after we married, and does not consider himself to have ever truely been Catholic. We have any number of lapsed Catholics and former born-again Christians who attend our parish, and in fact, in the 20 years I have been attending at least six of them have felt truely called to serve and have either completed divinty school or are in the process.
While we'll probably never know, I sure would be interested to learn how many faithful the Church really lost after the infiltration of liberalism and resultant "destruction from within" really got rolling after Vatican II.
While the changes ran much deeper than the simultaneous gutting of both the ancient liturgy and classic church architecture, I can't imagine that rapidly transforming mainstream Catholic worship from the dignity and reverence of this....
to the banality of this....
didn't send millions running for the narthex and out the church doors forever.
can't imagine that rapidly transforming mainstream Catholic worship from the dignity and reverence of this....
to the banality of this....
didn't send millions running for the narthex and out the church doors forever.
Why do you find this so banal? If anything is cliche it is the top photo... I think the transformation of the Catholic Church to what it is today creates a much more realistic translation, more personal, and much more widely accepted approach to the future/youth of our Church. How much more cliche can you get than the top photo? Would it honestly be better to have mass said in a language that is dead and gone, one that nobody can relate? Perhaps I should start buying kerchiefs to wear on my head during Sunday Mass? Oh, and forgive me, but I take communion by the hand I guess I do not understand....
Why do you find this so banal? If anything is cliche it is the top photo... I think the transformation of the Catholic Church to what it is today creates a much more realistic translation, more personal, and much more widely accepted approach to the future/youth of our Church. How much more cliche can you get than the top photo? Would it honestly be better to have mass said in a language that is dead and gone, one that nobody can relate? Perhaps I should start buying kerchiefs to wear on my head during Sunday Mass? Oh, and forgive me, but I take communion by the hand I guess I do not understand....
How defensive thou art.
I take it that you want to partake in a happy-clappy, horizontal, feel-good praise session rather than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Unfortunately, your wish has come true in the Catholic Church over the past 40 years. So, you should be happy, not bitter.
But, know this....while the liberal seminaries are all but empty, the traditional ones are overflowing and expanding. And, the old priests and bishops of the 60's generation are slowly fading away. As my grandmother used to say, "This too shall pass."
Fortunately, though, there will always be alternative options for those who are hostile to Tradition:
By the way, since you're throwing around the standard Novus Ordo quips, don't neglect to mention that the priest has his back to the people.
By the way, since you're throwing around the standard Novus Ordo quips, don't neglect to mention that the priest has his back to the people.
Thought the pic spoke for itself... kinda obvious.
And yes, happy clappy sounds pretty good, at least I can understand what is being said as I don't speak a word of LATIN
Oh, and I am not bitter at all that I grew up in a much more open minded church than my parents... I am grateful I was able to participate in mass as much as I have in my lifetime... I am happy to belong to the RC of today... I am not defensive, I just honestly believe stepping backwords would send more people heading for the door...
Last edited by skbs; 07-24-2008 at 08:02 PM..
Reason: ps
I take it that you want to partake in a happy-clappy, horizontal, feel-good praise session rather than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. quote]
Now that I have more time...
40 years ago, the priest said the mass in latin for you... not WITH you. This is VERTICAL praise... the PRIEST giving up to God while the parish sat half listening and waiting for the cues of the bells while they said the rosary.... but the horizontal parise encompasses Christ's presence here on Earth... yes, I think that is important... it is imprtant to do both, and I believe the Catholic Church of today does a very good job of that... it does make everyone feel they are a part of Christ's Community...of course there are those individauls who are extreme traditionalist who feel only the priest should have part in mass... I don't believe this... I think it is not personal enough... not the right way to connect with people of today's world... People need to be reached through participation, not chants of latin through THE BACK of a priest no matter how dramatic the show... was it a beautiful tradition? Most likely... since I wasn't alive to see it... hmmmmmm....... but I do know I wouldn't want it.
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I guess I do not understand....
