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Here's why I don't believe our will is totally free of His plan, purpose and control:
He is sovereign - as Creator, there can be nothing else equal to His authority. All power is given Him, and that's where the concept strays from our understanding - "God will not force us to love Him, for that would not be love" some say; but in fact, He causes us to please Him.
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. (Prov 21:1)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Jn 1:12-13)
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29-30)
And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)
God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation. (II Thes 2:13)
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. (Is 46:10)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
The bible is full of declarations of God's sovereignty, so to ignore the fact that God's passion toward us is beyond our comprehension, and that putting our will before His would blatantly violate His word is in my opinion (don't flame me for this) idolatry. We must see Him high and lifted up.
Here's why I don't believe our will is totally free of His plan, purpose and control:
He is sovereign - as Creator, there can be nothing else equal to His authority. All power is given Him, and that's where the concept strays from our understanding - "God will not force us to love Him, for that would not be love" some say; but in fact, He causes us to please Him.
The bible is full of declarations of God's sovereignty, so to ignore the fact that God's passion toward us is beyond our comprehension, and that putting our will before His would blatantly violate His word is in my opinion (don't flame me for this) idolatry. We must see Him high and lifted up.
I see your points and I like what you said, but the question is what type of free will? Are we pre-destined or not? There's a whole other thread somewhere about that one, and I don't care to get in on that conversation.
All I know is that we seem to have the free will to choose or not choose to serve God, other than that....I just don't know. Some will say that our acceptance or rejection of God is also predestined.
This is one of those things that just cannot be known this side of heaven. But others will still want to argue about it.
I heard a pretty easy-to-understand scenario explained this way:
You have children - you love them very much, and you want them to be happy, safe, and grow into mature individuals that share your heart. Now, you let them go outside to play in your backyard.
(The "backyard" reference is used to illustrate what would be under our control - His backyard is everywhere.)
In your backyard is a swing, a slide, jungle gym, etc. to play on. Also, there are areas that would be harmful to venture into - perhaps tools, equipment and the like - but all this has been designated as the area where they should play.
It's up to them what they do in this area, but the boundaries have been set. This illustration describes the physical, mental, and emotional arenas. God is spirit, and communes with us on a totally different - and deeper - level. The power tools and dangerous items will work together for your children's good (Rom 8:28).
We know that God works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Phil 2:13). This concept is both foreign and dear to me.
If you didn't have a free will, what's the point of doing anything? Christians always tell me, life is about choice. Choosing to do good or to do evil. If you don't have free will, you can easily do as much evil as you want, claiming it to be god's will.
We do have free will but we are bound by sin. Sin is like a jail cell, you have the free will to get up, jump and down, run around but you can't leave.
If you didn't have a free will, what's the point of doing anything? Christians always tell me, life is about choice. Choosing to do good or to do evil. If you don't have free will, you can easily do as much evil as you want, claiming it to be god's will.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
Good question, but I do believe that God will have His way - our cooperation, our faith, our desire to please Him is all dependant on the level of grace he has given us. (without Me, you can do nothing.) Until we are joined with Him, there will be refining; "As the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand", and He won't stop until He can see his face in His work. His faithfulness reaches to the clouds.
It does plainly seem that we are all moral free agents, but this doesn't take into account that He is the faithful, eternal God. He has the keys to hell and the grave.
We do have free will but we are bound by sin. Sin is like a jail cell, you have the free will to get up, jump and down, run around but you can't leave.
"It is finished."
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope;
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (Rom 8:19-22)
Here's why I don't believe our will is totally free of His plan, purpose and control:
He is sovereign - as Creator, there can be nothing else equal to His authority. All power is given Him, and that's where the concept strays from our understanding - "God will not force us to love Him, for that would not be love" some say; but in fact, He causes us to please Him.
I agree, all things are from Him and to Him. I tend to think of us having self will which to me isn't free will. Many things influence the choices, decisions that we make. When I think of the idea of force I think about the scriptures which speak of all being subjected to Him. Jesus speaks of drawing us to Him. All will confess Him and bow before Him. This is a kind of force. If someone is convinced of something doesn't that mean that something influenced him or her and was so effective that it convinced them? Is this wrong for God to do? God is always motivated by goodnesss. He is good and does what it best for us. So this idea of forcing us to love Him, to me means that He forces us to realize how blind and lost we are without Him, removing whatever binders we have which keep us from really knowing Him. Those who are lost are said to be slaves and held captive and in darkness.
Quote:
It's up to them what they do in this area, but the boundaries have been set. This illustration describes the physical, mental, and emotional arenas. God is spirit, and communes with us on a totally different - and deeper - level. The power tools and dangerous items will work together for your children's good (Rom 8:28).
Good illustration. This illustrates for me the belief that some have that goodness and evil both have a part to play in the creation, that both are by used by God to teach us and mold us. God is exercising our self wills becasue our wills are a part of the process. We aren't robots and He wants us to commune with Him , to know Him, to be transformed into His image, and He has set up all of the elements which will bring this about. The belief of the subjection of our wills to God means to me that God has a plan and purpose which does not include absolute free will on our part. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 09-13-2008 at 07:20 AM..
I see your points and I like what you said, but the question is what type of free will? Are we pre-destined or not? There's a whole other thread somewhere about that one, and I don't care to get in on that conversation.
All I know is that we seem to have the free will to choose or not choose to serve God, other than that....I just don't know. Some will say that our acceptance or rejection of God is also predestined.
This is one of those things that just cannot be known this side of heaven. But others will still want to argue about it.
The Bible teaches that we are pre-destined to eternal life, but not pre-destined to hell.
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
The Bible teaches that we are pre-destined to eternal life, but not pre-destined to hell.
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
But Adam and Eve messed that all up for us, so what God chose and what man ultimately became our predestination are two different things.
Original sin...the burden that we bear at birth. And then there is the wonders of Baptism....
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