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And you often hear the argument that Jesus lived in an insignificant backwater colony of the Roman Empire which was not true at all. Heck, the Jews were a constant thorn to the Romans so they were VERY relevant. The kicker is, the book of Mark tells us that Jesus' fame spread abroad (allegedly) so apparently he was no guy moving about in secret.
Here is a secular account by Jews:
When Jannai the King[1] killed our rabbis, R. Jehoshua ben Perabjah[2] and Jeshu fled to Alexandria of Egypt. When there was peace, Shimon ben Shetah sent to him. “From [Jerusalem] the city of holiness to thee Alexandria of Egypt: my husband stays in thy midst and I sit forsaken.” He came and found himself at a certain inn; they showed him great honor. He said, “How beautiful is this inn.” Jesus said to him, “Rabbi [the hostess] has narrow eyes!” He said, “Fool, do you pay attention to such things.” He sent out four hundred trumpets and cast him out. Jesus came before him many times thereafter, pleading, “Receive me back.” But Jehoshua did not receive him. One day R. Jehoshua was saying Shema and Jesus came before him. R. Jehoshua signaled that he would receive Jesus, but Jesus thought that the rabbi repelled him. Then Jesus went out and hung up a title and worshipped it. R. Jehoshua said to him, “Return [to the teaching of your fathers]” but Jesus said, “I have learned from you that everyone who sins and causes others to sin is given no chance to repent.” Thus a teacher had said, Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic and led astray and deceived Israel. [b. Sanh. 107b]
Rabbi Eliezer said to the sages, “Did not Ben Stada bring spells from Egypt in a cut on his flesh?” They replied, “He was a fool and one does not prove anything from a fool.” Ben Stada is Ben Pandira. Rabbi Hisda [a Babylonian teacher of the third century] said, “The husband was Stada, the paramour was Pandira.” The husband was Pappos ben Jehudah; the mother was Stada. The mother was Miriam [Mary], the dresser of women’s hair—as we say in Pumbeditha {a Babylonian town where there was a famous rabbinical college], “Such a one has been false to her husband” [Shaddath 104b]
“He that cuts marks on his flesh.” Rabbi Eliezer condemns, the wise permit. He said to them, “Did not Yeshu ben Stada [Jesus] learn only in this way?” They said to him “Because of one fool, are we to destroy all discerning people?”
There shall no evil befall thee.” This means that evil dreams and evil thoughts will not tempt you7; “neither shall any plague come near thy dwelling” (Ps. 91:10) means that you will not have a son or disciple who burns his food in public like Jesus of Nazareth [b. Sanh. 103a]
A certain man named Yochanan who was learned in the Law and feared God, a man of the House of David, was betrothed to a virgin of humble birth named Miriam, the daughter of his widowed neighbor. This was in Bethlehem, Miriam, however, was seduced by a handsome fellow named Joseph ben Pondera, who tricked her on a Sabbath eve [in the following manner]: Miriam had thought that [Pendera] was her espoused husband, Yochanan, and submitting only against her will, was astonished that her husband –to-be would act in such a way. When [the real] Yochnan returned she chastised him for his behavior. [Yochnan] suspected Pondera and reported these suspicions to rabbi Shimean ben Shesh. When it was known that Miriam was pregnant, Yochanan knew that it was not his: but unable to prove guilt of [Pondera], he fled to Babylon.
Miriam brought forth a son and called him Yehoshua after her mother’s brother. This name in course was shortened to Yeshu. . . .
Yeshu fled to Jerusalem. In the Temple he learned the Ineffable Name. And to thwart the brass dogs who guarded the place of sacrifice and barked at those who had learned the name, making them forget, Yeshu wrote the name on a piece of leather and sewed it in the flesh of his thigh. He gathered around him in Bethlehem a group of young Jews and proclaimed himself the Messiah and Son of God. He rebuked those who rejected his claim, saying that they were only after their own greatness and wished to rule in Israel. To confirm his claim, he healed a lame man and a leper by the power of the Ineffable Name. For this, he was summoned before Queen Shalminon [or Helena], who found him guilty of acts of sorcery and beguilement.
But Yeshu restored a dead man to life, and the amazed Queen came to believe in him. He went next to Galilee, where he continued to work miracles and to attract crowds. The sages of Israel then saw that it was essential that one of their number, Yehuda Iskarioto [Judas], should learn the Ineffable Name, as Yeshu did, and rival him in signs and wonders. Yehuda and Yeshu came before the Queen. Yeshu flew in the air, but Yehuda flew higher and caused him to fall to the earth.[3] Thereupon the Queen condemned Yeshu to death and delivered him up to the Sages of Israel. They took him to Tiberias [the city] and imprisoned him there. But he had taught the followers that whatever happened to him had been prepared for the Messiah, the Son of God, from the beginning of creation—that the prophets had foretold it all. The followers of Yeshu fought against the Sages of Israel, rescued him and fled to Antioch. From Antioch, Yeshu traveled to Egypt where he learned spells. But Yehuda Iskarioto had [managed to] infiltrate the ranks of the disciples and to rob Yeshu of the Name. Hence, Yeshu went a second time to Jerusalem to learn the Name—and this Yehuda announced in advance to the Sages of Israel: When Yeshu should come to the Temple it was agreed that Yehuda would bow before him and thus the Sages would be able to distinguish between Yeshu and his disciples. [This was not easy, as they all dressed in garments of one color.]
And so it happened that the Sages of Israel recognized him and arrested him. They took him out and hanged him on a cabbage stem. [This was done because Yeshu had adjured all trees by the Ineffable Name not to receive his body if he was hanged; but he had failed to abjure the cabbage stem.]
The body was taken down while it was still the eve of the Sabbath—in order not to violate the prohibition. “His body shall not remain there for the night”—and immediately buried. A gardener, Yehuda, removed the body from the tomb and cast it into a ditch and let the water flow. The disciples discovering that the body was not in the tomb announced to the Queen that Yeshu had been restored to life. The Queen believing the story was tempted to put to death the Sages for having killed the Messiah. Indeed, all of the Jews mourned, wept and fasted, until Rabbi Tanchuma, with the help of God, found the body in a garden. The Sages of Israel removed it, tied it to the tail of a horse and paraded it in front of the Queen so that she could see the deception.
The disciples of Yeshu fled [for fear] and mingled among all nations. Among these followers were twelve “apostles” who sorely distress the Jews; one of these, Shimeon Kepha [Simon Peter] undertook to separate the disciples of Yeshu from the Jews and to give [the former] laws of their own. . . . Ancient Jewish Accounts of Jesus Christ
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When Jannai the King[1] killed our rabbis, R. Jehoshua ben Perabjah[2] and Jeshu fled to Alexandria of Egypt. When there was peace, Shimon ben Shetah sent to him. “From [Jerusalem] the city of holiness to thee Alexandria of Egypt: my husband stays in thy midst and I sit forsaken.” He came and found himself at a certain inn; they showed him great honor. He said, “How beautiful is this inn.” Jesus said to him, “Rabbi [the hostess] has narrow eyes!” He said, “Fool, do you pay attention to such things.” He sent out four hundred trumpets and cast him out. Jesus came before him many times thereafter, pleading, “Receive me back.” But Jehoshua did not receive him. One day R. Jehoshua was saying Shema and Jesus came before him. R. Jehoshua signaled that he would receive Jesus, but Jesus thought that the rabbi repelled him. Then Jesus went out and hung up a title and worshipped it. R. Jehoshua said to him, “Return [to the teaching of your fathers]” but Jesus said, “I have learned from you that everyone who sins and causes others to sin is given no chance to repent.” Thus a teacher had said, Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic and led astray and deceived Israel. [b. Sanh. 107b]
Rabbi Eliezer said to the sages, “Did not Ben Stada bring spells from Egypt in a cut on his flesh?” They replied, “He was a fool and one does not prove anything from a fool.” Ben Stada is Ben Pandira. Rabbi Hisda [a Babylonian teacher of the third century] said, “The husband was Stada, the paramour was Pandira.” The husband was Pappos ben Jehudah; the mother was Stada. The mother was Miriam [Mary], the dresser of women’s hair—as we say in Pumbeditha {a Babylonian town where there was a famous rabbinical college], “Such a one has been false to her husband” [Shaddath 104b]
“He that cuts marks on his flesh.” Rabbi Eliezer condemns, the wise permit. He said to them, “Did not Yeshu ben Stada [Jesus] learn only in this way?” They said to him “Because of one fool, are we to destroy all discerning people?”
There shall no evil befall thee.” This means that evil dreams and evil thoughts will not tempt you7; “neither shall any plague come near thy dwelling” (Ps. 91:10) means that you will not have a son or disciple who burns his food in public like Jesus of Nazareth [b. Sanh. 103a]
A certain man named Yochanan who was learned in the Law and feared God, a man of the House of David, was betrothed to a virgin of humble birth named Miriam, the daughter of his widowed neighbor. This was in Bethlehem, Miriam, however, was seduced by a handsome fellow named Joseph ben Pondera, who tricked her on a Sabbath eve [in the following manner]: Miriam had thought that [Pendera] was her espoused husband, Yochanan, and submitting only against her will, was astonished that her husband –to-be would act in such a way. When [the real] Yochnan returned she chastised him for his behavior. [Yochnan] suspected Pondera and reported these suspicions to rabbi Shimean ben Shesh. When it was known that Miriam was pregnant, Yochanan knew that it was not his: but unable to prove guilt of [Pondera], he fled to Babylon.
Miriam brought forth a son and called him Yehoshua after her mother’s brother. This name in course was shortened to Yeshu. . . .
Yeshu fled to Jerusalem. In the Temple he learned the Ineffable Name. And to thwart the brass dogs who guarded the place of sacrifice and barked at those who had learned the name, making them forget, Yeshu wrote the name on a piece of leather and sewed it in the flesh of his thigh. He gathered around him in Bethlehem a group of young Jews and proclaimed himself the Messiah and Son of God. He rebuked those who rejected his claim, saying that they were only after their own greatness and wished to rule in Israel. To confirm his claim, he healed a lame man and a leper by the power of the Ineffable Name. For this, he was summoned before Queen Shalminon [or Helena], who found him guilty of acts of sorcery and beguilement.
But Yeshu restored a dead man to life, and the amazed Queen came to believe in him. He went next to Galilee, where he continued to work miracles and to attract crowds. The sages of Israel then saw that it was essential that one of their number, Yehuda Iskarioto [Judas], should learn the Ineffable Name, as Yeshu did, and rival him in signs and wonders. Yehuda and Yeshu came before the Queen. Yeshu flew in the air, but Yehuda flew higher and caused him to fall to the earth.[3] Thereupon the Queen condemned Yeshu to death and delivered him up to the Sages of Israel. They took him to Tiberias [the city] and imprisoned him there. But he had taught the followers that whatever happened to him had been prepared for the Messiah, the Son of God, from the beginning of creation—that the prophets had foretold it all. The followers of Yeshu fought against the Sages of Israel, rescued him and fled to Antioch. From Antioch, Yeshu traveled to Egypt where he learned spells. But Yehuda Iskarioto had [managed to] infiltrate the ranks of the disciples and to rob Yeshu of the Name. Hence, Yeshu went a second time to Jerusalem to learn the Name—and this Yehuda announced in advance to the Sages of Israel: When Yeshu should come to the Temple it was agreed that Yehuda would bow before him and thus the Sages would be able to distinguish between Yeshu and his disciples. [This was not easy, as they all dressed in garments of one color.]
And so it happened that the Sages of Israel recognized him and arrested him. They took him out and hanged him on a cabbage stem. [This was done because Yeshu had adjured all trees by the Ineffable Name not to receive his body if he was hanged; but he had failed to abjure the cabbage stem.]
The body was taken down while it was still the eve of the Sabbath—in order not to violate the prohibition. “His body shall not remain there for the night”—and immediately buried. A gardener, Yehuda, removed the body from the tomb and cast it into a ditch and let the water flow. The disciples discovering that the body was not in the tomb announced to the Queen that Yeshu had been restored to life. The Queen believing the story was tempted to put to death the Sages for having killed the Messiah. Indeed, all of the Jews mourned, wept and fasted, until Rabbi Tanchuma, with the help of God, found the body in a garden. The Sages of Israel removed it, tied it to the tail of a horse and paraded it in front of the Queen so that she could see the deception.
The disciples of Yeshu fled [for fear] and mingled among all nations. Among these followers were twelve “apostles” who sorely distress the Jews; one of these, Shimeon Kepha [Simon Peter] undertook to separate the disciples of Yeshu from the Jews and to give [the former] laws of their own. . . . Ancient Jewish Accounts of Jesus Christ
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You do understand that your citing out of context bible detractor?
"While the public has easy access to religious literature on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, there is little opportunity for the general reader to assess the more sceptical works of biblical criticism. In "Jesus Outside the Gospels", Professor Hoffmann argues that very little is known about Jesus apart from the Gospels. He contends that the Gospels were intended to establish not the history of Jesus, but his divinity. The four books, attributed to men called Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were written some two generations after the events they intended to describe. Hoffmann analyses and quotes extensively from non-biblical sources written 1,900 years ago, providing a picture of the man called Jesus that is quite different from the man portrayed in the Gospels. Sources analysed at length are the Talmud, Josephus, and Tacitus, as well as Gnostic and Apocryphal Gospels. Hoffmann holds to a controversial view that the Gospels are in reality the missionary propaganda of a first-century messianic cult and are far from objective biographies or historical annals. Hoffmann suggests that there is good reason to seek outside evidence for the life and teachings of Jesus Christ."
"Although mentioned in the New Testament gospels, there are no extant non-biblical references to Nazareth until around 200 AD, when Sextus Julius Africanus, cited by Eusebius (Church History 1.7.14), speaks of “Nazara” as a village in "Judea" and locates it near an as-yet unidentified “Cochaba.”"
Try not to fall prey to confirmation bias when you read something. Try to analyse the information offered and not to see what you want to see! There IS a reason why they came up with the name Pauline Christianity read about it. Here is an example Pauline Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One thing you should always remember when you are in the face of uncertainty is that, belief is a choice you make because of a lack of evidence. As such, your fist stand is to assume it: it can't be proven, thus it is uncertain. Then you choose to believe based on your moral code but wouldn't force others to do so because you understand it's a belief and not a proven truth. After that you should also try to see and understand why people choose to believe a different thing from their perspectives. As an example let’s take diets. Science has not yet understood all the mysteries of the human body and therefore cannot say without a doubt what the perfect human diet is. They can give guidelines but it is still an underexplored field. So the diet I choose to follow is therefore based on my beliefs. For one, I do not believe in killing animals for feeding, so I chose to be vegetarian because it fits my ethical beliefs. As much as I would like it to be the perfect healthy diet, I know such thing has not been proven yet, so if I preach toward vegetarianism, I will not promote it for health reason (unproven) but for ethical beliefs (not killing is better than killing!). Jesus is one of those beliefs which cannot be proven. It doesn’t mean you cannot decide to believe in him but remember to do it for the right reasons and to always remember that it’s only a belief! I will never fear no Gods and there are plenty, but I’ll always be afraid of those who believe in them, when they start killing in their names!!!
One thing you should always remember when you are in the face of uncertainty is that, belief is a choice you make because of a lack of evidence. As such, your fist stand is to assume it: it can't be proven, thus it is uncertain. Then you choose to believe based on your moral code but wouldn't force others to do so because you understand it's a belief and not a proven truth. After that you should also try to see and understand why people choose to believe a different thing from their perspectives. As an example let’s take diets. Science has not yet understood all the mysteries of the human body and therefore cannot say without a doubt what the perfect human diet is. They can give guidelines but it is still an underexplored field. So the diet I choose to follow is therefore based on my beliefs. For one, I do not believe in killing animals for feeding, so I chose to be vegetarian because it fits my ethical beliefs. As much as I would like it to be the perfect healthy diet, I know such thing has not been proven yet, so if I preach toward vegetarianism, I will not promote it for health reason (unproven) but for ethical beliefs (not killing is better than killing!). Jesus is one of those beliefs which cannot be proven. It doesn’t mean you cannot decide to believe in him but remember to do it for the right reasons and to always remember that it’s only a belief! I will never fear no Gods and there are plenty, but I’ll always be afraid of those who believe in them, when they start killing in their names!!!
"I am all things to all men, that I might win some of them..."
Paul's Defence Before the Hebrew Speaking Crowd: Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Paul's Defence Before the Roman Centurion:
Acts 22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?
Paul's Defence Before the Sanhedrin:
Acts 23:6-7 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and Brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
I AGREE with you 100%....because no one really knows where the lies begin and end. Evidence points to it being more lies than not.
I am always open to any actual credible evidence there is....what I'm not open to any longer is speculation, fairy tales, myths, legends and blind slave faith.
Luk_11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
"While the public has easy access to religious literature on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, there is little opportunity for the general reader to assess the more sceptical works of biblical criticism. In "Jesus Outside the Gospels", Professor Hoffmann argues that very little is known about Jesus apart from the Gospels. He contends that the Gospels were intended to establish not the history of Jesus, but his divinity. The four books, attributed to men called Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were written some two generations after the events they intended to describe. Hoffmann analyses and quotes extensively from non-biblical sources written 1,900 years ago, providing a picture of the man called Jesus that is quite different from the man portrayed in the Gospels. Sources analysed at length are the Talmud, Josephus, and Tacitus, as well as Gnostic and Apocryphal Gospels. Hoffmann holds to a controversial view that the Gospels are in reality the missionary propaganda of a first-century messianic cult and are far from objective biographies or historical annals. Hoffmann suggests that there is good reason to seek outside evidence for the life and teachings of Jesus Christ."
That is what the Jews said about Him...And yes, I realize...However, it still is what it is...A mention of Christ outside the religious mainstream...If He did not exist...Why would the Jews even mention Him at all?...That is the point iwas trying to make....
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Out of context
