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Two opposing proclaimations: By the writers of Galatians and James...
Galatians 3:6-9"Abraham Was Justified by Faith, Not by Works" 6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith,
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse fro us: for it written, cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree.
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the gentiles though Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through death.
James 2:14-25"Faith Proves Itself by Works" 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food.
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believes that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John 12:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my father.
Revelation 20:12-13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
"Love God and Love your neighbor as you love yourself"
Matthew 22:40On these two commandments hang all the "law" and the prophets.
These things I ponder upon...
Peace!
James and Paul
James 1:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
These Two scriptures were used on another board to show that James and Paul did not agree with one another. Here was my reply, hope it may be helpful to others that see a contradiction between James and Paul.
Do these scriptures conflict with one another? Or are they speaking of two aspects of faith.
First it should be pointed out that Paul in Romans 4 is speaking of faith in the birth of Isaac (this is seen in verses 18-22) and James is speaking of the sacrifice of Isaac.
Two different aspects of faith.
Abraham did nothing but believe in Isaacs birth, but once Isaac/Christ is birthed in us He produces works of faith. It is these works of faith James is speaking of and this can be seen in verse 22 “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?†/complete
If Abraham never offered up Isaac (which is works) then his faith would never have come to completion.
We can see these same works of faith also mentioned by both Jesus and Paul.
John 8:39
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.( Are they works of faith or works of the law)
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,(these would be works of the law) least any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (works of faith)
2 Thessalonians 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark (works) to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Now think on this; if Noah had not built the boat (which was a work of faith, the same works of faith James is speaking on) then he and his house would have drowned with the rest of mankind.
Adds another layer to “faith without works is dead†don’t it.
Yes I know. My wording was not to good, but thanks!
Actually, when you really look into it, no-one really knows for sure who wrote the book of Acts.
I have yet to process this thread, as I've just found it today, but I have already been on to the fact that the Book of Acts may be a complete forgery. It seems it was written way after the Pauline letters, and as late as 100AD perhaps, which would be even after Revelation. Though, I am inclined to believe that Revelation was actually meant to set the record straight, and most likely came after Acts. I'm still trying to piece together that mystery.
Also, in defense of Paul (though not in much defense) I suspect that it wasn't necessarily him that directly influenced Acts, but someone who wanted to elevate Paul's status in order to deceive the people. Paul considered himself the least of the apostles. It's interesting to note, that if you eliminate Acts, Paul didn't really heal anybody, but instead told Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach affliction. Very suspicious!
I'm going to check out this entire thread soon and make some posts!
Two opposing proclaimations: By the writers of Galatians and James...
Galatians 3:6-9"Abraham Was Justified by Faith, Not by Works" 6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith,
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse fro us: for it written, cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree.
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the gentiles though Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through death.
James 2:14-25"Faith Proves Itself by Works" 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food.
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believes that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John 12:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my father.
Revelation 20:12-13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
"Love God and Love your neighbor as you love yourself"
Matthew 22:40On these two commandments hang all the "law" and the prophets.
These things I ponder upon...
Peace!
Oh yeah, totally.
There's also the instance in Acts (which i suspect is a forged book) where the Jewish Priest called on the name of Christ, and was overcome completely by a demon. This is meant to cause fear.
The demon said to the priest "Christ I know, and Paul I know...but who are you?"
Christ himself said that those who love him will have power to cast out all evil.
So this account in Acts contradicts Christ's teachings. Christ told us to never fear...only believe. Acts wants us to fear instead, and think of Paul as some divine being. But Paul never believed until it was proven to him (or so he thought) that Christ was real. Doesn't seem to me that he had much faith.
Since this is a twice resurrected thread, yes we have been down this road before.
I think we need to be able to put Acts aside and STILL establish Paul's apostleship, if he was in fact a true apostle. Acts has far too many problems to be an authority on anything.
So...can we prove Paul's apostleship without Acts...the same way we can establish Christ's divinity from more than one source?
Or does it all fall apart without the book of Acts?
Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3:6 "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
When Christ was asked how many times we need to forgive someone, he said in Matthew 18: 21-22:
"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven"
So how do we reconcile what Paul said and what Christ said about these things?
Paul says to shun every brother from the Church who walks in a disorderly manner.
Christ says you must forgive your brother, and keep trying to heal them seventy times seven times.
Actually, when you really look into it, no-one really knows for sure who wrote the book of Acts.
I have yet to process this thread, as I've just found it today, but I have already been on to the fact that the Book of Acts may be a complete forgery. It seems it was written way after the Pauline letters, and as late as 100AD perhaps, which would be even after Revelation. Though, I am inclined to believe that Revelation was actually meant to set the record straight, and most likely came after Acts. I'm still trying to piece together that mystery.
Also, in defense of Paul (though not in much defense) I suspect that it wasn't necessarily him that directly influenced Acts, but someone who wanted to elevate Paul's status in order to deceive the people. Paul considered himself the least of the apostles. It's interesting to note, that if you eliminate Acts, Paul didn't really heal anybody, but instead told Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach affliction. Very suspicious!
I'm going to check out this entire thread soon and make some posts!
Post #245 showed how I view the question of authorship...if you would care to read it.
Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3:6 "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
When Christ was asked how many times we need to forgive someone, he said in Matthew 18: 21-22:
"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven"
So how do we reconcile what Paul said and what Christ said about these things?
Paul says to shun every brother from the Church who walks in a disorderly manner.
Christ says you must forgive your brother, and keep trying to heal them seventy times seven times.
Shun is a stronger word than i believe Paul intended. I don't believe the idea is to shun a person as much as it is to not regularly keep their company.
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