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Thanks for that. But how do you know you'll be among the elect?
I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and live my life working out my salvation with fear and trembling. My life focus is putting God first in all things. I know I'm a sinner, and I know that I'm saved by grace, not for anything I have done, but because God loved me enough to send Jesus to die for my sins, just like He did for everyone else.
If my post comes across prideful then I apologize because that is so not the case. I have been extremely proud in the past and I was cut down to size in an extremely difficult life situation. God reproved me and showed me what the verse God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble truly means. I refuse to go back to prideful living after what I experienced.
I believe these events are extremely important and integral in our spiritual growth. What I was trying to say is that baptism, communion and confirmation are not prerequsites to get into heaven. The only thing that is needed to get into heaven is to receive Jesus as Lord, ie: to be born again.
AMEN Coon Boy! I agree you again! It's Jesus and ONLY Jesus!
Hoosier, I do not meet the criteria of being a "born again" Christian because typically "born again" folks do not accept the sacrament of Holy Baptism administered to an infant as having any meaning. I have not had some "magical moment" but a life of reflection, study, and accepting Christ as my savior.
Hoosier, please go back and talk with your Lutheran pastor friend. As a lifelong Lutheran I can tell you that we believe Baptism and Communion are not simple "outward expressions" of our faith [as you stated] but rather true sacraments where God is actually present "in with and under" the elements. This actually means the Spirit of the Lord is present, enters the child, and the whole church community agrees to support raising that infant as a child of God. For most people of my faith, this is the "born again" experience, which does not negatve that God can and does interact in our lives often in dramatic ways - but also accepts that there is no preordained 'experience" required to accept God.
This is not the same as the Roman Catholic believe in transubstantion [in relationship to Holy Communion] and view the Mass a bit differently than Lutherans do [though, once again, Communion is not simply ceremonial], and does not encompass other things they consider to be sacraments the Lutheran Church does not - just stating a fact, not a judgement of Roman Catholocism. I mention the Church only because of your reference to a Lutheran pastor. I think all demoninations bring a unique way to view God but God is bigger than all of them.
I will trust God to put the constaints on who will enter his kingdom, believing he wants all of us to be his children, and not human interpretations of God's mind. While his followers should live a Godly life, I believe you can repent at deaths door after living a heinous life. God's grace is for all who accept him and is freely given - I believe no one can do enough good works to earn favor in God's eye. All have fallen short.
God is so big, I cannot say that I would constain him from allowing people of other faith's in his kingdom either.
People talk about being 'born-again' and throw these scriptures at me, but no one has given a personal interpretation of what this means.
Being born-again is not about what church you attend. It's not about religion. Being born-again is making a conscious decision to follow Christ. You lay down your life and pick up your cross daily...as He did for us that fateful day to Calvary.
Being born-again is not about who can praise the Lord the loudest or recite the most Bible verses. It's a quiet relationship with the Lord. It's also a live out loud relationship with the Lord. God created each of us differently and with special qualities. I'm more outgoing and my wife is more introverted. We both have Christ in our lives and love the Lord more than anything else, and we show it differently in our daily walk with Him. But we're still Christians because at a specific point in each of our lives we realized that there was nothing we could do to get to heaven on our own. We weren't good enough and we could do enough good deeds to get there.
I realized this and made my decision when I was 21 years old and in the military overseas. My wife made her decision in her first job out of college and living far from her home. We met when I was 30 and she was 28. God was truly the most important person in our lives. We didn't go around standing on street corners preaching or walking up to people handing out tracts tellin' them they were going to hell.
I was raised in the Catholic church and when I made this conscious decision to turn my life over to the Lord I could've stayed in the Catholic church but I personally chose not to. I know of many Catholics who are "born-again" or what you might call a charismatic Catholic. It's not about your religion, it's about a personal relationship with the Lord.
Morale Officer...I'm so very sorry that you had that experience with Campus Crusade. After my parents turned their lives over to Christ and I did the same the next year. I joined the staff of Campus Crusade in 1972 and was on staff for about three and a half year. I learned so much but like all organizations did not agree with everything. I don't think any organization or any church has everything right. It's because it is full of people like us I heard this poem once: To live above with saints we love, oh what glory. But to live below, with saints we know, that's another story!
We live in a fallen world with believers and non-believers. Even the Christians will let you down and fail you. That why we put our trust and faith in God alone not in other Christians. I believe there are believers in all churches. I have several close Catholic friends who I know are born again believers. They have put their trust in Christ alone for their salvation. Everything else, everything, is a side issue. I think there is room for some differences and that just doesn't bother me. And in the whole picture it is just not worth the debate. I used to debate years ago but you know you usually don't change anyone's minds. But you add anything onto Christ and you say that his sacrifice was not enough.
You change people through sharing what you think God has said, loving them unconditionally and living what the Bible says.
Again, I am sorry, God Bless
the bible clearly states what a person must do to be born again.
taking sacraments is not one of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannynancy
Hoosier, I do not meet the criteria of being a "born again" Christian because typically "born again" folks do not accept the sacrament of Holy Baptism administered to an infant as having any meaning. I have not had some "magical moment" but a life of reflection, study, and accepting Christ as my savior.
Hoosier, please go back and talk with your Lutheran pastor friend. As a lifelong Lutheran I can tell you that we believe Baptism and Communion are not simple "outward expressions" of our faith [as you stated] but rather true sacraments where God is actually present "in with and under" the elements. This actually means the Spirit of the Lord is present, enters the child, and the whole church community agrees to support raising that infant as a child of God. For most people of my faith, this is the "born again" experience, which does not negatve that God can and does interact in our lives often in dramatic ways - but also accepts that there is no preordained 'experience" required to accept God.
This is not the same as the Roman Catholic believe in transubstantion [in relationship to Holy Communion] and view the Mass a bit differently than Lutherans do [though, once again, Communion is not simply ceremonial], and does not encompass other things they consider to be sacraments the Lutheran Church does not - just stating a fact, not a judgement of Roman Catholocism. I mention the Church only because of your reference to a Lutheran pastor. I think all demoninations bring a unique way to view God but God is bigger than all of them.
I will trust God to put the constaints on who will enter his kingdom, believing he wants all of us to be his children, and not human interpretations of God's mind. While his followers should live a Godly life, I believe you can repent at deaths door after living a heinous life. God's grace is for all who accept him and is freely given - I believe no one can do enough good works to earn favor in God's eye. All have fallen short.
God is so big, I cannot say that I would constain him from allowing people of other faith's in his kingdom either.
The question isn't, do you know Jesus?, the question is, does Jesus know you?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier
What defines...a Christian?
June honestly has no idea whether Jesus knows her. If He does, he hasn't let June know. June, generally speaking, has a fairly good grasp on what she knows and what she doesn't know. Most of us do. However, for someone who has posted the querie "How do we know what we know?" in the past on these threads, (as regards such matters as "faith" and "belief") June obviously has some sort of invested interest in how people know what they claim and uphold so strongly to know. June would assume, based on all she has read, (here) and been told (here) that you can't remove Jesus from the equation of "God."
Therefore, you tell me: If your omnipotent, omnipresent God exists, and if Jesus was God's way of showing His divine love for all mankind, then does Jesus know June? It's a real question.
--However, if yours or anyone else's answer to the above ^ is "no," or if it comes with caveats, or if it comes with contingencies, or if it comes with "do's" or "don'ts" or if it comes with "must do's," or if it comes with needing "transformation," or if it comes with "clarification," or if it comes with "contradiction," or if it comes with edification, or if it comes with edicts of anything other than that which June knows, or boldy attempts to deny one note of what June hears, then please:
June genuinelly, respectfully, and most of all authetically asks you to please:
Don't reply.
If your God does not know June, then you (obviously) need not reply. --Because June is obviously not going to heaven. It is obviously not an option for her. --Because "He will say 'away from me you evil doers; I never knew you.' " I accept that.
--Because June would much rather hope to hear one barely inaudible note as she looks out her window, looking to see whether she really heard the geese flying overhead...
And because you don't have the right to define that. You don't have the right to hold anyone else's heart in your own hands.
And risk breaking it in the process...
"What defines a Christian?" --I have no idea what a Christian is anymore. I honestly don't.
Take gentle care.
Last edited by june 7th; 10-17-2008 at 07:24 PM..
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It's Jesus and ONLY Jesus!
After my parents turned their lives over to Christ and I did the same the next year. I joined the staff of Campus Crusade in 1972 and was on staff for about three and a half year. I learned so much but like all organizations did not agree with everything. I don't think any organization or any church has everything right. It's because it is full of people like us
I heard this poem once:
