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If Jesus worshiped and gave praise to God, as the bible states, wouldnt that mean that he is separate from God--he wouldnt worship and give praises to himself--that would be vanity
Your defining the difference in worship and devotion is a good point. I would say that Peter and the other disciples while having an inkling on worship while with Jesus did not come to grasp with what that truly meant until post cross, resurrection and pentecost.
Peter's swinging his sword was definitely and act of devotion over worship. He did not comprehend the absolute necessity of the cross. The whole story of Jesus in the garden prior to his arrest and pleading with the disciples to stay awake with him, his sweat coming out as blood, his obedience to the father to accept the cup offered to him, all this was the culmination of all he came to do -- to go to the cross. And what did Peter do? He tried to abort the very thing Jesus came to do, and how? By trying to take on a whole army troop by himself. Not an act of worship, but of devotion.
He then proceded to deny Jesus when he had just sworn allegience unto death for him. Again, an act of devotion but not worship.
Devotion can do some big things, but it can only carry one so far.
But here is where the verse Alpha quoted earlier comes into play. The sacrifice on the cross by Jesus for Peter (and all of us) paved the way for Peter to become a new creation. His spirit became alive. When Jesus first encountered the disciples post his resurrection, according to John's gospel, he 'breathed' on them to receive the Spirit. Then just days after Jesus' ascension, on the day of Pentecost, the Spirit of God fell on the believers and Peter preached a sermon and 3,000 became believers.
This is the transforming power of the Spirit of God. A guy that just weeks prior made a grand statement that he could not keep by denying Jesus three times that very night -- then, just weeks later, preaches a sermon that sees thousands come to a saving knowledge of Jesus.
At this point Peter switched from devotion toward Jesus to worship.
I would offer that this is why devotion is easier for you to comprehend than worship. There is a little of that fear factor that does come into worship, I will not deny. But it is that fear of holiness, of supreme goodness, of coming into the presence of one without sin, of true beauty and awe, that those of us familiar with sin just get quivery and can do nothing but bow.
However, Jesus came and walked as one with us, as one who lived in the limitations of human flesh, as one tempted in every way that we are (yet without falling to that temtation), as one who became sin, becoming the totality of our sin in our stead.
So, we do not worship a God who is not familiar with our condition. He does not come to us as an alien force with technological supremecy over us. He instead came in the lowliest of fashion, lived a servant life, loved those who weren't particularly lovely, befriended the sinner.
That is why I stated in an earlier post that Jesus doesn't demand our worship, he invites it as an act of our will. However, his holiness demands our worship. He is holy. Apart from him we are far from holy.
GCS, there is nothing wrong in coming to God with your intellect. There is nothing wrong with seeking to understand God. That is why I posted to you in another thread a few weeks ago to lay aside all the petty things you see us Christians debating and just ask God himself to reveal himself to you. You did ask which God. Well, I would say that you examine this God, the father of our Lord Jesus Christ and see if this Christ represents what God would be the best. I have staked my eternal claim on this Christ. Why? Because Mohammed, Buddha, Confuscious, the pantheon of Hindu deities, none of them did anything to bridge the gap between me and God. That gap is my sin.
Those other guys suggested ways that I through my own good deeds or works can somehow bridge that gulf -- by what? Acts of devotion. Deeds of devotion to others, to God, to myself. There are even Christian sects that fall short of this message, they are doing things to come to God.
Yet this Jesus went to the cross because he knew that I in my sinful state could not bridge that gap. I could not pay for my debt of sin. So he, the one person that never, ever had to pay for sin, was the one in fact that became sin in its totality for me, died on the cross and paid my debt. The wages of sin is death. I was owed death. Jesus paid it. No other has done that. No other made a way for me to come before God.
Devotion will only get you so far. When the destination is pure holiness, devotion will always fall far short. Worship is a response of one who has been brought fully before God at someone else's expense.
That is why we worship Jesus.
Hmmm... I think you misunderstood my sentiments on worship and devotion. I actually do think I understand worship in the context that you described it with Peter especially in the context of the resurrection of Jesus. Really, I think I have a firm grasp on it. My point, as I mentioned to Alpha, was that worship can be somewhat of a double-edged sword but I wanted to separate the wheat from the chaff to point out that very often worship is something that people just nod their heads at, profess that they do it, and don't even give a second thought. But, worship can have its roots in some ugly places and can often be misdirected and used in an improper manner. If you don't believe me, look at how the people of North Korea worship Kim Jong Il. Worship, in some senses, is not always a good thing and can very often be the result of fear based indoctrination. Now, I don't suspect that most Bible-believing Christians are necessarily the victims of fear based indoctrination but I do think that people don't necessarily understand what it is they are worshiping.
What I mean by that is exactly why I used somewhat obscene examples of advanced technologies to get my point across. Because people tend to worship things that seem above human powers even if they can be used for great evil.
Now, as far as the rest of the post goes, I have to say that I admire your tenacity but I think that it's somewhat misplaced both on this particular thread and at me in general. You said:
GCS, there is nothing wrong in coming to God with your intellect. There is nothing wrong with seeking to understand God.
I'll try to be as nice as I can by saying this but I have several problems with this approach that I genuinely don't think believers really and truly understand. Bless their hearts, no pun intended, they just don't seem to get it.
I think the impression I get from a lot of believers is that if I ask a question, or if I engage in conversation about their faith or their God, that they automatically assume I'm starting to sway to their side or that I'm "getting close" to changing my mind. I must honestly admit that nothing could be further from the truth.
Just because I engage in conversation, offer my viewpoint, or something else along those lines doesn't mean that I'm necessarily interested in becoming a Christian. I can do Islam too, believe it or not, I actually know quite a bit about it. Probably more than I've ever let on in this forum. I even know a word or two of Arabic.
Anyway, I'd like to tell you a story about how I sometimes feel. You can use this as a metaphor if you'd like. Ok, well it is a metaphor, I hope you see what I'm getting at by it:
I remember when I was in junior high school... I was very self-conscious because I had bad acne and big, thick nerdy glasses. I really liked this girl in school but I had no self-confidence to approach her because I wasn't comfortable with myself. One day she actually approached me and asked me something simple in the friendliest of ways. Looking back on it, it was just a friendly gesture but I took it as meaning that she was interested in me and wanted to date me. In all reality, she didn't have the slightest interest in me but she would engage in conversation and sometimes she'd even flirt with me. But, looking back on it, she didn't really want to date me. In the end, I drove her away because I was a bit overzealous and had the wrong impression of her. I would call her on the phone and ask her to date me and I'd help her carry her books in desperate hopes that one day she'd agree to date me. She never did.
I hope you see my point?
And really, take that in the most lighthearted of manners. I'm just trying to put it the best way I know how unlike the girl who just refused to talk to me ever again (but that was after the restraining order )
Now, I don't really want to drag on in this particular thread on me as I fear it would go dreadfully off topic. Feel free to create a new thread on this side conversation if you'd like. Heck, call it "Let's convert GCSTroop" for all I care. But this really isn't the thread for it.
Hmmm... I think you misunderstood my sentiments on worship and devotion. I actually do think I understand worship in the context that you described it with Peter especially in the context of the resurrection of Jesus. Really, I think I have a firm grasp on it. My point, as I mentioned to Alpha, was that worship can be somewhat of a double-edged sword but I wanted to separate the wheat from the chaff to point out that very often worship is something that people just nod their heads at, profess that they do it, and don't even give a second thought. But, worship can have its roots in some ugly places and can often be misdirected and used in an improper manner. If you don't believe me, look at how the people of North Korea worship Kim Jong Il. Worship, in some senses, is not always a good thing and can very often be the result of fear based indoctrination.
What you're describing is great fear, but no adoration. This is more along the lines of James 2:19's description of how the devils worship God.
Worship from a child of God's perspective is from a heart that is not longing to be accepted, but one that is already accepted. Contrary to many Christian's testimony, it's not trying to stay in good graces (and avoid punishment) but a celebration of a Love that will not let us go.
It's a joining together of common nature - as God is spirit, we must be united in His spirit to truly worship (John 4:24). It's anything but common pittance.
What you're describing is great fear, but no adoration. This is more along the lines of James 2:19's description of how the devils worship God.
Worship from a child of God's perspective is from a heart that is not longing to be accepted, but one that is already accepted. Contrary to many Christian's testimony, it's not trying to stay in good graces (and avoid punishment) but a celebration of a Love that will not let us go.
It's a joining together of common nature - as God is spirit, we must be united in His spirit to truly worship (John 4:24). It's anything but common pittance.
Excellent once again Elmo
Ha! I had enough reps out that I could rep you again! Give and it shall be given unto you!
Jesus is worthy of worship because Jesus is God. If we worshiped Jesus and He was not God, then we'd be committing the sin of worshiping a false God, which God himself forbade. This is further support of the trinity. Because Jesus accepts our worship, He is declaring himself to be God, otherwise He would not permit us to sin by worshiping him. His acceptance of our worship shows he is God and worthy of worship.
Holy, He is Holy, Kings of Kings, Lord of Lords I worship you! Jesus, your my Jesus, Kings of Kings, Lord of Lords I worship you!!! Most definitely!!!
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