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Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mari4him
The reality is no such dominion of man over woman was established at creation, in the garden, by God. It was not God's original plan for marriage. God was very clear about dominion. Adam and Eve together were to take dominion over everything, while not each other. God listed those things to them and never once (in the garden before the fall) did God establish this dominion/rulership of the man over the woman. Adam and Eve were to rule together, jointly, as one. A marriage fashioned after God's design is one which adheres to the principle of being one, submitting to one another out of reverence and love for God, as well as, love for one another.
Yes, but we are past "the perfect situation" in the garden; understand that's gone. We have the result of Eve being deceived and Adam's sin to deal with now. Your arguement from the garden is meaningless at this point. As a result of sin Eve was no longer trusted to be on her own and God ordained by a direct command that Adam was to be "ruler" over her (Genesis 2:16). If you have to, read that verse over and over until you see that command; you are missing it because you don't want to see it.
Quote:
Scripture tells us two are better/stronger than one. Where one is weak the other is strong, as iron sharpens iron, if one falls down the other is there to help them up, edifying and uplifting one another, etc. This is, or should be, the blessedness of marriage, not about one being better, stronger, more in control, dominate, etc. over the other based on their gender. We are called to walk together, a house divided cannot stand. Marriage is not a follow the leader, but a union of two, becoming one.
You must really hate any male authority? Why is it that you find God's order and place for men and women so repulsive? "Marriage is not follow the leader"? I think it is, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3) Do you not see an order here?
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And, before anyone tosses in the rest of 1 Peter 3:7 classifying her as the "weaker vessel", that has nothing to do with authority or Eve being deceived. In the Greek, vessel was a very commonly used word/metaphor used for "body". And, as far as weaker/weak, throughout scripture men are described as weak also. Was Adam also not weak? Did he not fail to take dominion over the serpent, choosing to disobey God's direct command to him?
Why not toss in the rest of 1 Peter 3:7 and the wife being the weaker vessel? it's Scripture? What are you afraid of?
You must really hate any male authority? Why is it that you find God's order and place for men and women so repulsive? "Marriage is not follow the leader"? I think it is . . .
Oh . . . I don't know . . . perhaps because my gender is so full of egotists who think like this. It's embarrassing!
Last edited by Miss Blue; 11-09-2009 at 10:57 AM..
Reason: Had to edit even though I agree :)
Yes, but we are past "the perfect situation" in the garden; understand that's gone.
Yes we are past the "perfect" situation, sin separated us from God. However, praise God, we are also past the imperfect through Christ. He is the perfect sacrificial lamb of God is He not? He is the perfect and only atonement of sins is He not? Or do we only conveniently apply that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks
We have the result of Eve being deceived and Adam's sin to deal with now.
Oh.. okay. Are you saying outright disobedience is far less a sin than being deceived? Based on your interpretation Eve gets punished far harsher for being deceived with "man rules over you now", while man gets rewarded in a sense for disobeying God, not to mention failing to take dominion and lead in the first place, by gaining even more dominion/rulership, now over the woman. Seems to me this goes against God's character of trusting one with more when they've proven faithful with less.
Trying to interpret a singular verse without trying to understand the fullness of God's character as revealed throughout ALL of scripture is where faulty interpretations can take place as we try to interject our own biased beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks
Your arguement from the garden is meaningless at this point. As a result of sin Eve was no longer trusted to be on her own and God ordained by a direct command that Adam was to be "ruler" over her (Genesis 2:16). If you have to, read that verse over and over until you see that command; you are missing it because you don't want to see it.
Nothing of God's word is meaningless and I base my argument upon His word.
So let me see if I understand you correctly, Eve could no longer be trusted because she was deceived... yet Adam could be trusted with more now despite the fact that he blatantly disobeyed God's command and failed to take dominion over the serpent, the garden. So again, Eve is punished more harshly for being deceived, Adam is rewarded with even greater trust and authority after being disobedient? Ever thought this verse is not a new prescription for marriage but rather God's prediction of how it would be now.
See I'm not missing anything. I think you are though, trying to stick so closely to man's interpretation of all this authority/dominion thing that you may be failing to see this was NOT God's design for marriage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks
You must really hate any male authority? Why is it that you find God's order and place for men and women so repulsive? "Marriage is not follow the leader"?
Wow, so I hate "any" male authority now. Okay. You truly have no clue what you are speaking of. First, I don't "hate" authority, male or female. In fact I have been under the very godly authority of both in my life and had no problem whatsoever with it. I, however, do not care for pride and arrogance nor dictatorships, as these are not the will of God.
Secondly, I never said I find God's order repulsive. I merely stated I don't agree with man's interpretation and seek truth through the guiding and leading of the Holy Spirit.
I see God wants mutual submission from His children, both male and female, both husband and wife. I see God never created man to rule over woman, rather He created them to rule together. I see God calls husbands to sacrificial love (agape love) for their wives equivalent to the love of Christ for His church, He died for her. I see women are to respond towards their husbands, as unto the Lord, key words, unto the Lord. Sorry, but if my husband saved or not saved steps away from the will of God and commands me to go against the word of God and what I know God has called me to do, I'm going to submit to God will first and above all, before I do to a man's will.
To not do so is to risk... hmmmmmm possibly being deceived by my husband AND disobedient to God. Neither which I think God accepts as an excuse for my not following His will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks
I think it is, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3) Do you not see an order here?
I see an order as to source. We're just probably not going to agree on this. The source of man is Christ to whom He is not greater than. The source of woman is man to whom she is not greater than, the source of Christ is God, to whom He is not greater than. When all submission is perfectly aligned with its source, all are submissive to God. In line with God. For Christ has the mind of God, thus man ought to have the mind of Christ, which is that of God, and woman ought to have the mind of her husband (being of one accord for the two become one), whose is in Christ, whose is in God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks
Why not toss in the rest of 1 Peter 3:7 and the wife being the weaker vessel? it's Scripture? What are you afraid of?
Ummm I did toss it in. In fact, I even addressed the whole weaker vessel thing which you obviously overlooked or ignored while picking out select things I wrote to claim my points meaningless while accusing me of hating authority, being repulsed at God's order, and even afraid to address the very matter I interestingly enough did address.
Guess I can ask the same question, what are you afraid of?
I see you didn't address the rest of the post addressing how a man who is so busy trying to lord authority and rulership over a woman, his bride, can in fact be out of the will of God and a hindrance to himself by hindering his God given wife from moving within her God given gifts which God himself has provided to him in form of his "helper". Remember what proverbs warns about pride.
The point is, submission is not to be demanded. Authority of man over woman is not to be commanded. Both occur naturally when both husband and wife submit to one another in Christ. This is what makes a godly marriage work when both husband and wife are mutually and individually submitted to the Lord first and foremost. This then creates the foundation for God to work within that marriage using the couples strengths for the benefit of one another. Neither the man, nor the woman, in a marriage is exclusive of the other but rather both need one another.
In area's where a submitted to the Lord husband is stronger, more mature, more knowledgeable it behooves the wife, and she rarely has problems with, heeding his direction and lead.
Likewise, in area's where a submitted to the Lord wife may be stronger, more mature, more knowledgeable it behooves the husband, and if He truly is submitted to the Lord and understands the gift (helper) his wife is to him, he rarely has a problem allowing her to take that lead.
The beauty of God's plan for marriage as that neither is offensive to God, rather it is His design and why He created women to be a help to the man seeing it was not good for him to be alone. A wife unjustly trying to lord over her husband, however, is as offensive to God as a husband unjustly trying to dominate/rule his wife, God's daughter.
The husband is to be the leader of the home.
The wife is to be the helper.
That is how the world is et up to run the best.
If a wife has questions about salvation or church matters, she should ask her husband first.
The image of the best type of wife that showed good respect to her husband was Sarah, who called her husband "Master".
The husband is to be the leader of the home.
The wife is to be the helper.
God is to be the leader of the home, of the husband, and of the wife. Both husband and wife are to submit to God AND to one another. The husband ought to take a leadership role in the home and a wife ought to help him do so. However, said leadership is by example, not by dictatorship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad
If a wife has questions about salvation or church matters, she should ask her husband first.
But Alan, with all do respect you are also assuming some stuff here. First, you are assuming the husband is well versed and spiritually knowledgeable to handle such matters. What of the woman who is married, became a Christian after marriage while her husband did not. She through the years has thus grown as her husband has no desire to learn anything of scripture and perhaps doesn't even believe in God... then what?
A woman, whether married or not should go to God first and to His word for her answers. When able she then should go to her husband if he is able to help her in those matters she may have questions. However, if he is not able to, she should then turn to her fellow sisters in Christ or the leadership of the church and in doing so she is not erring or usurping authority through her bypassing her husband who is ill equip to offer the insight she needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad
The image of the best type of wife that showed good respect to her husband was Sarah, who called her husband "Master".
Many women in her time called their husband's master or lord. It was the custom, Sarah was signed out for more than just that. Furthermore, she was not perfect. She did not simply trust God at His promise and felt He was taking to long in delivering on the promise of Issac, so she took matters into her own hands as if God needed her help. Hence we gain Ishmael.
Yet... we see where in the example of Abraham and Sarah there was occasion where God instructed Abraham to do as Sarah told him to do. Basically, God told him heed what your wife is telling you to do.
Genesis 21:9-12
9And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
I usually use KJV among other versions in my studies but rarely post from KJV. I did so in this instance because the translator in KJV used hearken... hearken is from the Hebrew word Shama which means "hear, listen to, obey".
Obviously, if God Himself could tell Abraham to hearken the voice of His wife Sarah, I'm sure God has no problems when a husband at times defers to his wife's leading in a situation, if God is in the center of it and if both are committed and submitted to God.
That is just the point that I am trying to get across. I don't think God is all that hung up on all this gender stuff as we make Him out to be. God is not about molds, He created us uniquely in His image and within each of us is strengths and weakness'. When a marriage is fashioned by God, in which He brings the two together and they marry, it is for a reason. Not so one rules the other but so that both become one... the strengths in one makes up for the weakness in the other and visa-versa.
Sarah is pointed to as being the Christian wife example, because she was not afraid to show her husband the proper RESPECT!...
Not because she was perfect...
She had her flaws, but in all this she still knew that the Lord wanted her to always show her Master the proper respect as fitting her husband and her Lord...
This is sadly lacking in far too many Christian marriages where in an effort to be seen as only equal we find husbands that don't know how to lead and guide their wives at all...
And so the blind lead the blind....
First, you are assuming the husband is well versed and spiritually knowledgeable to handle such matters.
Moderator cut: Deleted
It has to fall to the husband to be the leader of the home.
This is the way God wants the home to be run.
The husband is not born with great knowledge of the Bible, a husband has to learn it , and the best way to learn it is to have to teach it to someone.
Thus if a wife has questions about the Bible, let her ask her husband at home.
If he dont know, then it falls to him to search for the answer as it falls to the wife to allow him this role.
Men lead, wives help.
But a wife does not help be leading...
She helps by helping him become and be seen as the leader.
[quote=alanMolstad;11555842]The husband is to be the leader of the home.
The wife is to be the helper.
That is how the world is et up to run the best.
If a wife has questions about salvation or church matters, she should ask her husband first. The image of the best type of wife that showed good respect to her husband was Sarah, who called her husband "Master".[/quote]
Sooo...what if the husband is clueless and the wife actually knows more about church matters? It can happen you know! Not all men are smarter than women. And Sarah is a lousy example. Sure she called him master. So what. Moderator cut: Deleted due to inappropriate content.
Last edited by june 7th; 11-16-2009 at 09:09 PM..
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Figured as much.
